More on Giving from David Bach

Here are some more thoughts from David Bach on giving. This time, they're from his book "Start Late, Finish Rich" page 298:

When I first heard the billionaire investor and philanthropist Sir John Templeton make this point, I wondered if it could really be true. Could the secret to being rich really be as simple as "give more and more will come back to you"? Does giving really attract wealth?

Some 10 years later, I can say that I am certain of it. Time and again, I've come across examples of superrich individuals who made a point of donating a portion of their earnings to charity--even before they became rich. Indeed, virtually every self-made billionaire I've ever studied echoes Templeton in declaring that tithing or giving was a principle of their life well before they had any money.

As a result, I've come to believe that giving of your time or money to help others is more that the "golden rule." It is the golden magnet. I have seen this happen in my own life and in the lives of hundreds of people around me. It's a simple, observable fact: Those who give lead more abundant lives.

This sums up my thoughts, beliefs, and experiences as well. In fact, I've commented that in the years that I've given the most, I've seen the largest increases in my net worth. It's not a coincidence in my opinion.

This doesn't mean that we give to get more. Really, our motivation should be to help others and that's why we should give. Then, as we're blessed even more financially, that allows us to give even more -- and the cycle goes on and on this way.

I've written a few pieces on tithing, and since David mentioned the issue, I'll link to them here:

• The Tithe is for Today
• The 21st Century Tithe
• Questions about Tithing

In addition, here are a few additional articles on giving that you might want to review:

• The Gift is Acceptable According to What One Has
• Why Give? Because It's Investing
• The Power of Giving

Comments

[Early Riser]

FMF,

I think the proposition that those who give more to charity (though some cosmic double entry accounting) will receive more material wealth in return is, at best, dubious. I donate a significant amount of money to my church and other charities solely because it's the right thing to do. I think it's antithetical to judeo-christian teachings to link charity to personal material enrichment.

Just my opinion.

[FMF]

Did you miss this paragraph:

"This doesn't mean that we give to get more. Really, our motivation should be to help others and that's why we should give. Then, as we're blessed even more financially, that allows us to give even more -- and the cycle goes on and on this way."

[Early Riser]

No I didn't miss it and I'm not implying that you suggested personal enrichment as a REASON to give. I'm stating that the very idea of a cause/effect relationship between giving and gaining is antithetical.

[FMF]

In what way?

[Make Love, Not Debt]

We believe that giving is only part of the solution. We're constantly tight on money, so we don't donate as much as we'd like to charities.

We do give up a lot of our personal time to volunteer. If you believe that time=money, then we're on our way to giving a fortune.

[Early Riser]

Suggesting that there is a cause/effect relationship between charitable giving and future material wealth is, I believe, wrong on so many different levels.

- It confuses anecdotal correlation with causation

- It could be used as misguided reason to give when people should be giving for selfless reasons

- Do you really think that G-d or Jesus care if your personal net worth is increasing or decreasing? Does G-d make your stocks go up? What if two donors invest in the same stock - one short and one long? How does the great accountant in the sky deal with that?

- Mark 10:25

[FMF]

I'll take these one at a time:

"It confuses anecdotal correlation with causation."

I think that's the issue we're discussing -- does one cause the other or not.

"It could be used as misguided reason to give when people should be giving for selfless reasons."

I agree, that's why I highlighted the paragraph noted above.

Just because something could be used in the wrong way, doesn't mean it's not true/useful/right. Many (if not all) good ideas, products and services can be twisted for bad purposes. Does this mean we should do away with them?

"Do you really think that G-d or Jesus care if your personal net worth is increasing or decreasing? Does G-d make your stocks go up? What if two donors invest in the same stock - one short and one long? How does the great accountant in the sky deal with that?"

Do you? Obviously not. Do I? See the next section...

"Mark 10:25"

The direct answer to this is Mark 10:27. Everyone's saved by grace through faith -- even the rich.

In addition, how do you explain Luke 6:38, Mal. 3:10, and like verses?

In the end, there may be no solution here between us -- we have differing viewpoints where there may be no room for compromise. I'm just responding so that you know this is something I've thought about, studied on, and seen in my own life, not just an idea I posted on a whim.

Furthermore, I think it's interesting that almost every major personal finance author/speaker (David B., Suze, Robert (no matter what one may think of him), Dave R.) and so on, hold similar views.

[Early Riser]

I'm still wondering if you believe that G-d cares if you or I increase our material net worth and I'm not sure you answered the question directly.

As for an explanation of other passages that mention giving and receiving, my guess would be that it's intended as a metaphor for spiritual 'returns' versus cold, hard cash.

Concerning the self-help / personal finance authors you mentioned... I've never found their conclusions very compelling nor do I believe they are very rigorous in their analyses. They're fine for folks who haven't figured-out to how live within their means or that (surprise! surprise!) you need to save money for retirement. I don't find their writing compelling evidence that giving money to charity causes better returns on the S&P500. In fact, that's an idea... create a mutual fund that mimics the portfolios of the world's most prolific givers and see if you can consistently beat the market :-)

[FMF]

Might not be a bad idea.

I'm not sure what/who G-d is. Do you mean "God"? Why the G-d?

Did I say that God cares if we increase our material net worth? Is that even the topic? You may want to re-read what I actually said.

And you can't quote the Bible as rationale for an argument you favor and then dismiss it as a spiritual metaphor when you don't like what it says -- it doesn't work that way.

[Early Riser]

FMF,

As for G-d versus God, I was raised in a Jewish home and G-d is the accepted convention for writing God in the Jewish faith. Is that OK w/ you? (before you ask why I said 'church' in my first post, my family and I attend a UU church)

Your argument was that giving=getting. If this is the case, some non-earth-bound force (i.e. God) must make it happen because I doubt you believe your church can control the flow of wealth to its congregants. If God chooses to make it happen, I assume that God wants it to happen. If God didn't care, why God would make it happen? The question remains: do you personally believe that God rewards you, FMF, with material wealth for donating money to charity? This may not be exactly what you said, but I'm still interested in your answer.

You're right... I shouldn't have used one passage and dismissed the other. I really didn't want this discussion to become a rhetorical ping-pong match. I really just want to fully understand what your claiming and explore what other conclusions can be drawn based on the claim.

[FMF]

ER --

I'd never heard of "G-d" versus "God" before. Interesting. I'll ask my Jewish friends about it next time we're chatting. They always have their own unique spin on Jewish traditions.

To address the question you're asking fully, I'd need to write a post (a long one -- or a series -- at that), and I'm not going to do that in the comments section. (I've already spent enough time going back and forth to make up a couple posts.) Besides, I'm not sure you're generally interested in the thinking/rationale as much as you have already made up you mind and want to argue (or at least badger), and I'm simply not interested in that. It takes too much time and effort and I have other topics to address (after all, this blog doesn't write its own posts).

If I've read the conversation incorrectly and you're sincerely interested in what I think, then I apologize. I also point you to the links I noted above and will ask that you read my Sunday posts. They are always on "The Bible and Money" and cover my thoughts, in detail and with references, on how the two mix.

[FMF]

Holy cow, just posted that and I sound like a fifth grader learning English!

Make "generally" into "genuinely" and "you" into "your" and I think it will sound better. Sheesh.

[God, Sex, and Money]

Excellent article - nicely done! No surprises here... God puts seed into the hands of those who will sow. Keep up the good work!

[Melinda (Aussie-Girl)]

FMR what a great topic/idea to post on a whim.
We are blessed just as you and your many friends have been as well.
True giving (without any thought of being rewarded) has changed our financial lives.
When we couldn't give dollars, we gave time, when we couldn't give time we gave dollars.
The latest example (one of dozens)is - 2 months ago we gave (there was no question of a loan) our struggling niece (who has supported herself magnificently since leaving home) $2,000.
Yesterday, unbeknown to our Accountant and ourselves we were pleasantly surprised with a $2,100 tax cheque - I wonder if we could call that 'Giving with Interest'? LOL

[Eileen Chilson]

I don't understand (from some of the posts) the resistance to the idea of receiving after giving. How can a person continue to give if they don't continue to receive? It is part of a spiritual equation. I guess people feel more "holy" if they say they don't expect to receive anything. The motive for giving should always be because "it's the right thing to do", but I think it's O.K. to give even with the wrong motive. Just do it. There are a lot of people in need. They are not going to care about your "motive".