I Think Dave Ramsey is a Hypocrite

Here's an interesting comment I recently received from a reader:

Regarding an earlier post, Dave Ramsey's website DOES accept credit cards. You can buy any product he offers with a Visa or Mastercard. He has a disclaimer on his website stating that his policy is debit cards only but that they cannot tell the difference electronically between a credit and debit card. He considers this an issue of integrity and expects people to not use the credit card. I have been a Dave Ramsey fan for ten years and have followed his program and am debt free. But this is totally hypocritical. When I started following his program 10 years ago, he did not take any cards (debit or credit). His company drafted the money directly from your checking account. However, as his business has grown and his fame has increased, he decided that in order to continue to grow and keep up with the demands for his products, he would have to accept electronic payments in the form of a card, debit or credit. To his account, he clearly states that he expects people to be honest. However, the vast majority of people buying his products are the very ones who cannot control their credit card spending...hence the need for his products. You wouldn't give an alcoholic a beer, why give someone who cannot control their spending the opportunity to go further into debt? Could it be that Dave has compromised his integrity just a little himself????

I was a little skeptical that this was true since I've lived in Nashville (Dave Ramsey's home town) and know he would rather kill himself than accept a credit card. Or so I thought.

I went to his website and looked under his debit card policy. In normal type it details what he does and does not accept with the summary being:

• He does not accept credit cards.
• He does accept debit cards.
• He does the latter because it is essentially a payment in cash, not credit.

Then, in little, itty-bitty type at the bottom, with an asterisk just like the credit card companies use, it says this:

The Lampo Group, Inc. and Dave Ramsey recognize that the Visa and MasterCard virtual monopoly on the debit card industries prohibits merchants from only taking debit cards. As such, it is impossible for us to ensure that every order has complied with our debit card policy. We trust that all of our customers hold EXCEEDINGLY high levels of INTEGRITY and maintain EXTRAORDINARILY high standards of TRUTH and HONESTY. Basically, anyone ordering from us who does not follow this policy is a shady and dishonest character. Don't put yourself in this group. You're better than that. Stick to our policy, NO CREDIT CARDS, and make us all happy.

You've got to be kidding me. He does accept credit cards.

Yeah, he's couched it in terms that make it look like he doesn't want people to pay with credit cards, and my guess is that he really doesn't want them to, but still, the fact remains, he does accept them. This seems totally hypocritical to me. Come on, Dave! If you really believe credit cards are so bad, why not eliminate the use of them on your site? And if that means no debit cards too, then that's what it means. But I guess the almighty dollar is more meaningful than sticking by your principles, huh?

Personally, I'm fine with people using a credit card and I've documented here many times how I use mine to earn cash back. I'm more of a believer that adults can control themselves if they want to, and hence having a credit card doesn't condemn you to a life of debt and over-spending. In fact, I have credit cards, only buy budgeted items and I pay the cards off every month -- I've done so for 20 years. But if someone is going to rail on credit cards, call them evil, cut them up on stage, and all the other things Dave says/does about them and then offers them on his site (even if it's in a back-door sort of manner), I have to lose respect for that person.

What do you think? Am I being too harsh or does Dave deserve this sort of backlash?

Comments

[FMF]

Ben --

First of all, let's note that you're a friend of Chris Thomas (who has posted above extensively). For those of you who don't know, Chris is Dave Ramsey's director of national advertising. (http://pourout.wordpress.com/)

So, now that we know you're less than an unbiased commenter, I'll address your issue.

The definition of hypocrite according to Dictionary.com is:

"1. a person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that he or she does not actually possess, esp. a person whose actions belie stated beliefs.

2. a person who feigns some desirable or publicly approved attitude, esp. one whose private life, opinions, or statements belie his or her public statements."

In this case, Dave says he hates credit cards, calls them evil, and so on, yet he accepts them (even if he says he "doesn't want to") on his site and at (maybe -- as noted above) some events.

In my case, I note above (did you even read the post anyway or just come here to bash me at the suggestion of your friend?):

"Personally, I'm fine with people using a credit card and I've documented here many times how I use mine to earn cash back. I'm more of a believer that adults can control themselves if they want to, and hence having a credit card doesn't condemn you to a life of debt and over-spending. In fact, I have credit cards, only buy budgeted items and I pay the cards off every month -- I've done so for 20 years."

So, exactly how am I a hypocrite?

[ben]

Yes, I am a friend of Chris although I'll admit and I am sure he will too, that I am more mild manner than he is. Also, I do apologize for overlooking the original post. I did notice it again after my first post. I simply forgot that statement after reading the other comments.

I also am aware of the definition of a hypocrite. I am also not out to bash you - I actually discovered this post independently. My point was not even to disprove your thoughts on the fact that Dave is a hypocrite. My point was that everyone is a hypocrite - including me. I don't think anyone deliberately wants to be a hypocrite but things happen. However, due to the nature of hypocrisy, anyone who points it out in others is also at risk of having it pointed about them.

Who knows, you may be the one person I have ever talked with who is not a hypocrite.

As far as being biased? Maybe I am a little. However, I really do appreciate your post, because it has helped me think through this issue more.

[Chris Thomas]

Ben is definitely more mild-mannered than I am. I tend to call stupid stupid and Ben tends to try to make friends by saying something truthful like "We're all stupid!" I admire him for that.

I haven't told a single person in our office of 200+ people about this post. Believe me dude, this is such a non-issue to the people who really know us and what we're about. Accepting debit cards is 100% consistent with Dave's message. It's just unfortunate that if you accept debit cards, you have to accept credit cards as well. That's why Dave asks you not to and says you're a freaking idiot if you do it anyway.

You never addressed/acknowledged these items:

1) We do accept electronic check.
2) Why would Paypal make your boo-boo all better? You can pay with a CC using Paypal too. Wouldn't you be groaning about that the instant it was available?
3) Be honest: Would you call Dave a hypocrite if he didn't accept debit cards after singing their praises all day?

And Emma, I 100% agree with you. Isn't it funny how we all take the bait anyway???

[AncientVoice]

There is something I don't understand...
If a merchant that accepts Visa and Mastercard can't deny a debit card with a Visa or Mastercard logo, how can all the major Car Rental places and Hotels not accept debit cards??? I've tried to rent cars and hotel rooms with a debit card and am denied on a regular basis.

[Chris Thomas]

I rent cars and book hotels with debit cards all the time. I've never had one single issue.

[chris]

Re Debit Cards on travel.

It varies. Avis won't allow a debit card for some reason. Now usually Avis is not a first choice rental company for me, but when I've used Priceline in the past, Avis was generally the provider.

[FMF]

Ben -- Ok, I see where you are coming from. That's a deep issue (that everyone is a hypocrite about something). It's certainly worth considering.

Chris Thomas --

Here are my thoughts on your comments:

"Accepting debit cards is 100% consistent with Dave's message. It's just unfortunate that if you accept debit cards, you have to accept credit cards as well. That's why Dave asks you not to and says you're a freaking idiot if you do it anyway."

I never said Dave wasn't consistent accepting debit cards -- what I did say was that he was inconsistent allowing credit cards to be used in any way (which they can be as his site admits.) As noted above in my post, I was frankly surprised to find this. The Dave Ramsey I know (or thought I know) would NEVER accept credit cards no matter what. And any system that allowed them to be used, he wouldn't be part of. If it meant that users had to go to whatever extreme to buy his stuff to avoid the potential for a credit card charge, I would have said he would have avoided it. But, alas, that is not the case.

"You never addressed/acknowledged these items:

1) We do accept electronic check.
2) Why would Paypal make your boo-boo all better? You can pay with a CC using Paypal too. Wouldn't you be groaning about that the instant it was available?"

1. I didn't bring up these issues, other commenters did. Are you following all of this?

2. You have a snotty attitude, Mr. boo-boo. That's really impressive and adds a lot of credibility to your thoughts/arguments. I think you need to hang out a bit more with Ben.

"3) Be honest: Would you call Dave a hypocrite if he didn't accept debit cards after singing their praises all day?"

I'd expect him to say something like this:

"As you all know, I love and recommend the use of debit cards. However, the card processing systems can't tell the difference between a credit card and a debit card -- and you know how I feel about credit cards. They're evil. So despite the fact that I love debit cards and despite the fact that it's going to cost me some money, I can't in good conscious be associated with any system that has anything to do with credit cards. That's why we don't accept even debit cards."

That's what I totally expected to see when the original commenter brought up the issue and I went to investigate. Instead, I found what was posted above.

[Livingalmostlarge]

Actually Paypal has the option of not accepting CC payments so you don't have to pay the fee to accept it.

DR is a hypocrite. I hate the fact he went BK but tells others to not declare BK. But it's fine since he tells people he understands how they got into debt.

[annab]

I think if Dave forswore any method that -could- use credit cards, it would just be a mail order (or call in w/checking account, which I personally think is really risky.)

I could see if this issue were at the events, where it's obvious what the card is, but if you're talking about online sales, then I just don't see any reasonable option.

I guess it would be different if we were talking about something 20 years ago, but in the internet age I don't want to 1) write a check to some stranger or 2) take the time off to go to the post office. I just wouldn't buy the product.

Although...I didn't buy the product. I got it from the library, haha.

[Merry Maid]

No matter what form of payment Ramsey accepts, customers can use credit cards to fund their purchase if they take out a cash advance. So why deny debit card users just cuz customers might cheat and use a cc? I hate that this world usually denies liberties to honest people just cuz some people might cheat. So I applaud Ramsey not taking away a convenience from the honest people just in case some people are dishonest.

Also, (if BK means bankruptcy -- sorry if i'm wrong livingalmostlarge -- i like your website, btw!) I declared bankruptcy and tell people not to do it. It was too easy of a fix. I got right back into debt. It was painful to get out the second time and this time I'm never going back. I think that people who've made poor choices (a former drug user, for example) are perfect for the job of advising others not to follow in their footsteps. They know from experience.

[Ed]

Just a thought. I find it very odd that one would care as much as Chris Thomas about what another human says about another..... Opinions are opinions and everyone is entitled to have one.... Makes you wonder if he has been told to seek out and distroy any Dave rhetoric he may come across. Thats a form of marketing.

[FMF]

Ed --

Good point.

[Chris Thomas]

Yeah, it's "just a thought." And completely untrue. Believe me, I'll never comment on one of these posts again. It's ridiculous what some people will find to complain about. I've definitely learned my lesson.

[Tim]

Ed, That's just Chris. That part where Ben said he is more "mild mannered" that Chris, that's a very Ben way of putting it. Chris is one of those passionate guys that will get rolled up in even the smallest thing if it touches a nerve. Dave, the things we do around here, and especially someone challenging Dave's integrity (in what really is a nit-picky way) are all things that will jump up and down on Chris' nerve.

[Ed]

With all due respect Chris, you just said "It's ridiculous what some people will find to complain about….." Yet, you have just spent a good deal of your life complaining about FMF's comment on Dave.

The fact of the matter is, one cannot deny the hypocritical nature of the whole thing. With that being said, being a hypocrite does not negate what one believes to be right or wrong, good or bad. Everyone is a hypocrite in one form or another. So what.

[FMF]

Tim --

And he's the director of national advertising? Yikes! I'd hate to be a potential advertiser and tell him I wasn't buying a spot on Dave's show!

All --

We've had it out on this issue quite a bit, so let me state some final thoughts:

1. Generally, I think Dave Ramsey is a good guy and does help a lot of people.

2. That said, I really can't stand Dave's on-air persona. It's way over the top for me.

3. I also don't agree with Dave's stance on credit cards (noted above.) Then again, he's on TV, radio, etc. and I'm not, so it's working for him.

4. I was honestly surprised that he had ANYTHING to do with a credit card in any way. AS you recall, he was upset when Family Christian Stores offered his book when someone signed up for a credit card (see http://www.freemoneyfinance.com/2006/10/dave_ramsey_ver.html) This is the Dave Ramsey response I would have expected. Him allowing payment with credit cards, though he discourages it verbally on his site, is something I see as being out of character for him.

That's my take on the issue. Most of you don't seem to think it's a big deal, and things didn't really heat up until Chris Thomas showed up. Interesting how that worked out.

[chris]

Tim: What probably bothers people most is what you guys may see as nit-picky are to outsiders incursions on the absolutes that are encouraged. The no matter whats.

You folks have a term that is used called the 2 percenters. It's probably used to describe the cranks that no matter what you do or how you present it, there will always be someone who just can't be appeased. But by calling it the 2 percenters, it somewhat lays the foundation that anyone, whether the never to be satisfied crank or the person who has a legitimate issue are still lumped in as a 2 percenter.

Earlier this month I received an email from your organization with a link to a sound clip of Dave reading an email that takes on Dave's comment "debt is dumb, cash is king".

Ok, that person could have been a true 2 percenter. They were overly legalistic. But it was likely a real issue to that person, whether they are right or wrong.

But instead of Dave explaining that, he goes on a tirade telling the writer they are out of their mind and calling them a twit. http://echo4.bluehornet.com/ct/ct.php?t=2027763&c=1924092463&m=m&type=1&h=5F338477D29B7020F63400AEABA6927A

The net effect is, question Dave and risk being told you're out of your mind and a twit. My guess is Dave wouldn't take that response from anyone, but easily dished it out. Apparently the company liked it because it was in the email as a highlight.

The same happened here on this blog. The theory advanced was whether Dave was a hyprocrite on the CC issue. Actually a legitimate question, if you look at as a "no matter what" issue.

But instead of replying that 'we have a real problem with how we must handle business and we look at it from time to time and are in search of avoiding this compromise' -or- 'you know you're right, we should discontinue taking that form of payment because it does compromise our principals', the course was to circle the wagons and to a point go into attack mode.

Ben did pose an interesting question, but even if we all fall short, we still need to be appraised of that shortcoming and work to eliminate it. Not use the we all fall short question to marginalize the thought put forward.

I was questioned for having a faulty memory. You know, my wife and I have never discussed that March, 2006 live event example I gave after the fact. Yet when I asked her yesterday if she could recall how we were told to handle debit cards and if a person insisted on a credit card, she repeated almost verbatim what I wrote but yet was told couldn't have happened.

It's not a big deal. But it happened.

In a long handed way, what I'm seeing from the outside is that concerns and criticims are not taken and considered but rather attacked. I think we saw it here and in the example of the clip. Again, I don't think Dave would react kindly to being told he was out of his mind and a twit whether the comment was accurate or missed its mark.

[Chris Thomas]

Who went on attack mode? Please go back and read each of my comments from top to bottom. My boss has been called a hypocrite in the title of the post, and yet I'm just taking part in the conversation. I'm calm. I'm collected. Everything's cool. That is, until a reader says he was told to accept credit cards at two of our live events. So I asked people around here, just to make sure, and believe me, it just didn't happen. Chris may have misunderstood or it may have been a joke gone bad, but we just don't knowingly accept credit cards, ever. Ever.

That's when I got upset, but still, my comments are fairly tame. I did let my personal distaste for nitpicky people get the best of me with one sarcastic comment about "making FMF's boo-boo better" with Paypal. That was it! Seriously, I'm being portrayed as some fire-breathing beast who loses his temper at the prospect of losing an advertiser. Seriously? Over one sarcastic boo-boo comment?

Guys and girls, the fact is that none of you actually know me. I'm a nice guy! I treat people fairly, but I also like to be treated fairly. Certainly you're entitled to your opinion. I came and made some comments that I hoped would shed light on the situation and change some minds. Believe me, it's clear to me now that there's no changing your minds, and I'm totally cool with that.

I also tell the truth. There will always be conspiracy theorists who think Dave sent me to "search and destroy," but that's simply not true. I comment on a ton of blog posts because I read a ton of blogs. I'm extremely passionate about what we do and the integrity with which we do it, so when someone said "Dave's people told us to take credit cards at an event," I could not resist setting the record straight. Evidently I should have resisted.

Seriously, for my one sarcastic comment, I legitimately apologize to FMF and it's readers. If you want to accept that apology and make nice, cool. If not, that's your problem, not mine.

Just to show I'm serious, I'll send a copy of Dave's book to the first person that publicly forgives me in the comments. ;)

[FMF]

Chris Thomas --

I knew we could get you to comment again after you said you wouldn't. ;-)

I'll let someone else forgive you first to get the book. :-)

[Chris Thomas]

Doh!

[Kevin]

Chris, I forgive you. Always interested in some new PF reading.

[Chris Thomas]

Kevin, click on my name and scroll down the left hand side of my blog. You'll see a link to e-mail me. Send me your name and address and I'll get it out to you on Monday. And thanks for your forgiveness. It means a lot to me.

[Eric]

Any chance you're giving away a second book? (I had to ask!)

[FMF]

Chris Thomas --

Ok, I forgive you now too.

And just to show there's no hard feelings, how about asking Dave to mention this blog on his show? ;-)

[Chris Thomas]

Riiiiiiiiiiiiight. I don't have that much pull my friend.

[Chris Thomas]

And Eric, sorry buddy, but if you're interested in some free Which Wich?, check out my blog. Shameless self-promotion.

[Kevin]

Thanks, Chris. I just hit send on the email to you.

[chris]

Chris Thomas: You can't blanketly say "we just don't knowingly accept credit cards, ever. Ever." Your web site proves you can and do. Even if you believed you never have done it in the past, you now know differently.

In the disclaimer it does ask that people not do it, but the fact remains you know they can and some will.

What you're doing is the same as a pharmacy setting free condoms on a counter, unmonitored, and posting a note saying no one under 18 is to take one.

As I noted in my original comment, " And I've been told to really advocate debit only, but if someone insists on using a credit card, then take it." was that the debit card was the way to go, but if someone insists.....Well isnt' that the same as the web site. Except one is electronic and the other is verbal?

In my second note where I tried to clarify, I noted that we were instructed to use our best judgement at another event.

Two bad jokes or taken out of context? C'mon. I stand a better chance of winning the lottery than for that to happen.

Look, I don't think there is a directive to search and destroy. I do think there is a very protective culture that exists.

You also have a culture that encourages passion. Passion is very easy to turn into something that is not intended. Every situation is not kill it and bring it home.

And as I noted prior, there appears to be a culture that seems to have as a first response innoculation to criticism rather than really looking at the core of what a criticism or concern is and constructively dealing with it. The audio clip I referenced earlier is an excellent example. There was a constructive way to deal with that issue. It wasn't done. Instead the person was lasered with comments that they were out of their mind and a twit.
A lot of people thank that's cool until they are the recipient of similar treatment.

You guys do an overall excellent job. I know that Dave treats his employees well. I've read many instances of special days and other kewl things to create fun and commitment. Many would envy the atmosphere you folks work in.

[Fernando]

The good thing on this article and discussion is that I got to know Chris Thomas' blog and the story about Zappos shoes. Very nice!

[kentuckyliz]

I will speak as a recent shopper of the DR/Financial Peace website.

My cash wallet system thingie was wearing out, and I love it!!! It keeps me on a finite budget for my cash incidentals (food, gas, entertainment, blow as in misc. and not as in cocaine)--and sticking within these limits frees up so much of my resources to put towards other goals.

So I shopped online for a new wallet to replace it.

Now, I have benefitted from DR/FP, but I haven't quite drank the Kool-Aid. When I shop online, I prefer to use a credit card that has a Virtual Account Number feature for information security purposes. I pay it ASAP. (I don't routinely use a credit card and certainly don't carry it.)

But on the checkout screen at DR's online store, the way it is presented, it looks like you can't use a credit card. So I used my debit card.

I didn't notice the asterisk comment posted above, but perhaps it was there on that screen and I just didn't notice and take the time to read it.

Now, I have learned something from this discussion--about the banking system. I didn't know that VI & MC required participating merchants to accept both debit and credit cards (or be terminated from the service). I didn't know that only 400 companies in the world are Level 1 merchants that could tell the difference between debit and credit cards. I didn't know that a sneaky person could use a credit card on DR's site. It just never occurred to me.

So, learning what I have learned...I think it's hypercritical to think him hypocritical. He's operating the best he can to serve his customer within the operating rules of a banking system that's beyond his control. Perhaps someday the technology and policies will be in place to allow him to truly exclude credit card transactions, but it's clear to me that he is doing his best to discourage and exclude them by the very way the checkout screen appears. The customer doesn't expect to be able to use a credit card.

So, it's really rigorist to drag him through the coals for this. The pope is a sinner, too, you know. Sheesh.

[Prince of Thrift]

I believe, like others that it is the buyers integerty here not Dave's. However, I am not sure that he can't block credit cards while accepting debit cards. the grocery store Aldi's does it in their stores everyday.

[chris]

Prince of Thrift.

You know, I forgot about Aldi's. And now that you mentioned it, I know of a few other stores who do the same. The last time I was in Sam's Club, they only accepted Discover or a debit card. And a store called Family Dollar down the street from me only accepts debit cards too. Not even Discover or some other brand of card. IF these guys can do it, why can't Dave?

I also agree it's the buyers integrity if Dave asks that they not do it.

But the fact does remain that Dave's model does allow for it to happen. As I noted in an earlier post, if I were a pharmacist concerned about sexual diseases and unwanted pregnancy, but also believed sex is only to happen in the sanctity of marriage, and placed a basket of free condoms on an unsupervised table with a sign saying to be used only by those over 18 and married and we're trusting you'll do the righ thing. You can bet that there would be a lot of people not married and under the age of 18 failing the integrity test.

Many of Dave's followers would be appalled at the pharmacist if they knew of the condom situation was happening. Because they know the condom situation, as well as many other situations of integrity, often have a high degree of failure.

Wonder why he doesn't use the Aldi or Family Dollar debit card model? Probably has a higher cost?

[Chris Thomas]

Although Aldi is a little smaller here in the states, it's actually based in Germany and one of the largest retail chains in the world. Family Dollar is as well, along with Dollar General, which my wife used to work for. It may be different now, but at that time they chose to not accept credit cards either. Their size is what allows them to distinguish between credit and debit.

[Amber Yount]

Uh, For the people mentioning PAYPAL as an option to pay, do you NOT realize that you can hook up an infinite number of credit cards to your PAYPAL account? Also not everyone has, or uses it. More risky IMO.

[Adrian Burns]

Adding my two cents to this thread, I think a lot of people think Dave is ONLY able to see things in black and white terms. That it is either his way or NO way. This is far from the truth as a cursory listening to his radio show would demonstrate.

Dave is against bankruptcy and divorce but acknowledges that in certain circumstances (EXTREME circumstances) those are the only viable options. He often counsels a person upside-down in car debt to get a lesser loan (more debt)in order to get out of greater debt. Though, he would love home buyers to do what he calls the "100% down" plan (buy a home with cash), his material suggests a 15-year mortgage. And so on.

Dave routinely answers a question on his show(s) by stating "if Sharon and I were in your shoes this is what we would do". If this is the foundation of his advice then obviously Dave would not use a credit card or debt(of any kind) on a website/seminar of a man who advocates against the usage of such material. His honor and integrity wouldn't let him do such a thing which is sort of what his website disclaimer says.

But does that mean he has the right to force his will on someone who ignores his advice and/or acts without integrity?

Of course not. Personal responsibility is a BIG part of Dave's message, too. Rather than question whether he's a hypocrite or not, I would LOVE for someone to go on one of Dave's shows, ask him if it would be okay to violate the debit card/credit card loophole referenced in this thread to buy his material with credit. If ya'll thought Chris was passionate and went into "attack mode", you haven't heard anything yet! :-)

[Laura]

A lot of people fund their paypal accounts using a credit card. You have the option of credit card or bank account.

[Emma]

FMF...what's the deal? You write a post basically trashing Dave Ramsey and then you ask to have him mention yur blog on his show. Talk about calling the kettle black..
:)

[chris]

Adrian: Absolutely agree with you on Dave doesn't impose his program on anybody. You've cited a couple of examples, and yes, there are times when his compassion even surprises me. Everytime I get fed up with the brusk side of him (see above reference) he does something very compassionate that touches something in me.

I think what most of us so called "nit-pickers" have as an issue is Dave says he believes in what he refers to as "no matter whats". Credit cards are a no matter what.

Dave has automated the payment process on his website. Chris Thomas and some others are correct in that it is very difficult, if you're using such a system, to not allow a credit card to sneak through the process. But difficult doesn't mean impossible.

One way to stop such a process would be to manually handle the transactions instead of through the automated process. As mentioned earlier, there is a numbering scheme that differentiates debit cards from credit cards. It would require more people.

There may be a third party provider who would tailor a program to meet Dave's needs. Check the web on debit cards and you'll see a number of links that show debit card usage is up. Seems people are preferring to use the debit card over the credit card in many instances. There are a ton of providers and one may be willing to take this project on as a debit card only system. Has anyone asked?

I'm sure there are much more creative people than me who can come up with probable solutions to the problem.

BTW, you are the Adrian who is the writer?

[chris]

For those of you who are interested, I sent an email to a search I found in Google the other day regarding debit card processing.

Here's the back and forth:

Q. Is it possible to have a debit card only processing system rather than one that accepts both credit and debit cards?

A. Hello,

You can have debit card processing only with us. Here is the rate information (Must have a terminal with a Pin Pad at your business location):

---Transaction Fee is 0.40 Cents (per debit card transaction)
---Monthly Minimum Fee is $20.00 (depending on your processing volume for that month, it can be waived)
---Technical Support Fee is $12.00 (per month if you process a transaction)
---Contract Term is 3 years (w/ the $150.00 Early Termination Fee).

Please call or email if you have anymore questions. Thank you for considering us as your potential processor!

Since Dave's site is web based rather than point of sale based, I responded:

Q. Can that be set up in a web page environment?

A. Hi,

Do you have a software (for debit card processing)? Also, you need to make sure that this kind of software is compatible with us.

I can't specifically answer the above question from the company. But, while not a definite yes, it's a pretty strong maybe. And if set up entirely as point of sale, absolutely.

[Kentuckyliz]

Well, Chris, the POS sales ask for the PIN number. I wouldn't dream of entering my PIN number on a website. I even cover my hand if I have to do it in a store. (There have been cases where crooks use a recording device to get the number and exp date, then use cameras to get the PIN, and then have access to accounts; web security doesn't impress me much more.)

Car rental places mostly say they take only credit cards and not debit cards, but you can use the debit card there. They can't tell the difference.

[chris]

Liz: The point is, Dave's system allows leaks for credit card use.

Dave's folks brought up they couldn't avoid the issue. It is now clear it probably can be avoided.

Is the solution I found the only or best solution? I can't say. It's not my area of expertise. But clearly, there is a company that can probably do it.

I only did one request for information based off of one quick Google search. Just One. I've invested about 3 mins of time. Dave has a team of people dedicated to his web site developement as well as access to outside resources. They know the proper questions to ask and could possibly tailor a solution with this or another provider.

I really believe that it is now whether they want to plug the hole that exists or nod and wink at it.

This is only a big deal because they make such a big deal about not doing it.

[kentuckyliz]

Chris: yes, the issue "can be avoided" by using PINs at point of sale (POS) units, which implies an in-person shopping experience. Perhaps they have this set-up in the in-person store in Nashville; can someone local run in and check it out?

But PINs and POS units are not used in web transactions. It has already been established that DR cannot take VI or MC branded debit card transactions without also accepting credit card transactions, without violating the terms of the merchant agreement and being terminated. DR DOES promote debit card use.

So if there's any beef, take it up with Visa and MasterCard. They should permit merchants to accept only debit (or only credit) cards if that is their choice. DR cannot be held responsible for VI and MC's policies. Wow, the exacting moral purity standards you have for others! Be careful the exacting standards by which you judge others. How you measure out, it will be measured unto you. (If you believe in the Bible anyway.)

[Marcus Allen]

When I tried to order material for our church w/our church card they wouldn't accept it b/c they knew it was a credit card. So, I don't think it's hypocritical, it's just that they can't tell, but if they know it's a credit card they won't take it.

[Mike]

Bottom line - Dave accepts credit cards, regardless of the reason behind that process.

As a longtime listener of his radio program and having read all of his books, I'm disillusioned in finding this out. The best aspect about Dave's get-out-of-debt message is the concise black-and-white answers he provides to all the gray-area issues that lurk in the financial world. Beans and rice, live like no one else, debt snowball, become debt free and eliminate credit cards. We'll guess what, DAVE ACCEPTS CREDIT CARDS.

Dave has proven that it's a gray world after all, no matter how much or how long he stays on message. Actions always speak louder.

[Mike]

Bottom line - Dave accepts credit cards, regardless of the reason behind that process.

As a longtime listener of his radio program and having read all of his books, I'm disillusioned in finding this out. The best aspect about Dave's get-out-of-debt message is the concise black-and-white answers he provides to all the gray-area issues that lurk in the financial world. Beans and rice, live like no one else, debt snowball, become debt free and eliminate credit cards. We'll guess what, DAVE ACCEPTS CREDIT CARDS.

Dave has proven that it's a gray world after all, no matter how much or how long he stays on message. Actions always speak louder.

[Jeff]

It's funny how you're all up in arms about the small print on Dave's site and that you're against credit cards - yet you allow adsense on your site, which you KNOW contextualizes the text on the page and sticks ads on there accordingly and guess what - DEBT CONSOLIDATION AND CREDIT CARDS ADS are on your site.

I have a personal finance site and I won't use adsense because of this. So...who's the hypocrite here?

[FMF]

Jeff --

1. I never said I'm against credit cards. I use them and recommend people use them wisely to get cash back. READ THE SITE before you make inaccurate claims.

2. I never said I'm against ads, either. I do run ads, which generate a decent income. And I give every penny to charity. Check out: http://www.freemoneyfinance.com/2005/10/fmf_speaks_my_a.html

3. My issue with Dave is that he's saying one thing and doing another.

4. Now, knowing these things, you may want to check out the definition of hypocrite.

[Mary]

What do you expect from a hypocrite who tells his followers to eat beans and rice, sell all they own, and work 2 or 3 jobs 7 days a week to get out of debt ? Yet, when Ramsey was in debt he filed
bankruptcy!
Daves got some old fashioned ideas, but I guess it doesn't dawn on him to ask his faithful followers to send a check in the US Mail to pay for the stuff he is peddling!
What a crock!

[Kevin]

This reminds me, I've not received the book Chris Thomas promised in the October 18th entry above.

[FMF]

Kevin --

Ha! Maybe he offered it only to get your address. Now he knows where you live!!!!!! ;-)