Help a Reader: Does an Undergraduate Degree Matter?

Here's a question I received last week from a reader:

Was reading your blog earlier and was going through some of your archived post about education. I'm currently working on an transfer business degree at a community college and plan on moving to a 4 year university once I complete about 5 semesters worth (4 semesters of general stuff and then a few extra classes that I know will transfer at a reduced cost) Anyways I plan to go to a 4 year university after I complete this. Currently I think I'm just going to go to a state school (Northern Illinois University if you've heard of it) to earn my bachelors due to its relative closeness to me (about 35 minutes). After that I plan on going to University of Chicago to earn my MBA.

Now from what I've read in your blog you emphasize that where you get your masters from is important and I believe this to be true. This is very much the reason I'm hoping to go to Univ. of Chicago as it is rated as one of the top 7 schools in the US for its business program by Business Week. Anyways to get to my question, is there any or much importance as to where I earn my bachelors? Would it be worth the extra commute and expenses to attend Univ. of Chicago for my bachelors too?  My parents are helping with my tuition but I am also working full time while attending school to help pay and loans are being taken out for the rest, however those will most likely not be needed until later. Currently I pay for books they pay for tuition, which is great b/c comm. college is very affordable.

Here was my response:

I think after the past week, everyone's heard of NIU unfortunately.

My philosophy is that all your undergraduate degree/school needs to do is to get you into the grad school of your choice (assuming you've decided on this route). Sure, an undergrad from Harvard and an MBA from Stanford are better than an undergrad from NIU and an MBA from Stanford, but how much better? The first person will probably get paid a bit more upon graduating (all else being equal -- which it never is) and may have a few more connections, but probably not $100,000 worth (which is probably the extra amount it costs to get that undergrad degree.)

What do you think? What would you tell him to do?

Comments

[Suze]

If you plan on going to the University of Chicago for an MBA, the only undergrad advice I would give you is that you had better plan on doing very very well academically in your undergrad career.

Only you know your drive and study habits. Will you be able to ace every class at NIU? At U of C?

[LC]

I agree with FMF about the prestige of the school from your Masters being more important. However, there may be some advantage to getting both degrees fron the same school. In many cases, you can complete both degrees in a shorter time period because some credits will count toward both (both saving money on tuition and giving you an extra year of earning power). Not to mention the professors might get to know you better and could provide better recommendations. For those reasons, I would take another look at going to U of C for both. You still may be able to transfer some community college courses to count toward that.

[Dave]

I would get some good work experience (white collar job) first, and then see if your employer has tuition reimbursement

[Kyle]

I think it really depends on your industry. In the software business, where you did your undergrad is every bit as important as where you went to grad school to employers. Plus obviously a good undergrad degree will help you get into a better grad school.

[moneyandpf]

I went to Kent State University for my undergraduate and then onto Ohio State for my masters. I would say as long as your undergraduate degree lets you get into a good school for your masters that is whats important.

I do agree though that combining undergraduate and graduate at the same school can often let you graduate a little sooner than going from one to another.

Also at a school like OSU you have a lot of resource that you don't get a smaller schools. I had so much help from staff at OSU that were there solely to find jobs for students and advise them. Kent had some resources but not nearly the amount Ohio State did.

The bottom line is if you get your grad degree from a top school that stands out in its own right and you are obviously a good student that could make a great employee. The name of the school will get you the interview and the rest is up to you from there.

That's my experience whatever thats worth :)

[ben]

Undergrad is important especially for a MBA. Most top notch MBA programs are reluctant to take applicants directly out of undergrad.

The bachelors from U of C will open more doors than the same for NIU. Also, a 3.7 from U of C will look more impressive than a 3.7 from NIU.

[David]

I know this sounds cliche, but I really think your undergraduate is as good as what you put into it.

At my parents' insistence I went to a pricey top tier college and did OK, but there I have friends who busted their butts at state schools and are at Harvard for grad school or earning a boatload more than I am...for about $75k less.

The name of where you went to college only opens so many doors, but I don't think it opens any doors that hard work and dedication cannot. I agree, however, that the name matters more for grad school -- especially B school. Those networks of Alums may be more valuable that what you actually learn.

[george]

Can I post a question: I am an insurance defense attorney who works as a partner at a small firm. I purchase all of my own benefits: Medical, life, disability, retirement. I also pay the employers portion of the payroll tax. Over the last 5 years I have averaged about $200,000 net. I could probably find similar work for an insurance company as as employee. How much would I need in salary to match the same.

[Amy]

I'm in the legal field, where the top spots are very much based on where you went to school (more so than how well you did) and the prestige of where you did your undergrad really does matter. I can't really say whether it matters enough to spend $100K extra on your undergrad - but it very well might, Although if you do just your last 2 years at U of C, and you're living at home, it's not really a $100K difference, is it?

Many many (many) times I've wished I went to a better ranked undergrad, because it definetly opens more doors to have that on your resume, and I didn't realize the truth to that until after I was in law school. 25 years from now, when you're a polished professional with tons of experience, your bio will still list your education, with both undergrad and grad schools. My advice: go the best school you can get into, and work your a** off to graduate with honors for every degree you get.

[LawyerontheDL]

First, most big business schools will not even look at you unless you've worked for a period of time. So, you want to go to an undergrad school that will get you into a great job. Another consideration is that alot of universities limit the number of undergrads they will accept into their graduate programs. No matter where you go, though, do really, really well. Getting into the University of Chicago will not be easy no matter where you go to undergrad.

[Curtis]

It all depends on what you want to do when you get out of grad school. If you want to work in high powered finance in New York, you want to go to schools who can get you that connection. On the other hand, if you want to own a small business for yourself or work in middle management someplace, go anywhere and do well.

There's not a right answer for everyone. You have to look at your end goal to make that decision.

[Matt]

The most advanced degree (in this case the MBA) typically is the most important degree considered by employers. So assuming that you earn both degrees (BA/BS and MBA), the prestige of your MBA school is going to matter more than the prestige of your BA or BS.

However, although employers will primarily consider your performance at the University of Chicago, this assumes that you get admitted to U of C. You will have to apply, and U of C is extremely competitive and selects only the most stellar applicants. So the prestige of your bachelor's degree and your performance at your undergraduate college will matter to the MBA program's admissions department.

For now, I would say attend the best school that you can get admitted to and which you can afford, perform well in your coursework and excel as a student in other respects (employment, organizations, social life). This will prepare you to face U of C's MBA admissions staff and get the financial aid you'll need to be able to afford the graduate degree.

[LC]

george - I would think you could figure out pretty easily what you pay for medical/disability/payroll tax now and add that to the $200k to figure out an equivalent salary. You should also take into consideration any other benefits your employer might offer, such as flexible spending accounts, 401k matching, stock options, etc. Also remember that you will still have to pay part of your medical insurance although probably much less than you are now.

The important things to consider aren't whether your pay is exactly the same. As long as it is comparable, the intangible benefits could be more important. i.e. do you like the freedom you have now or would you rather have the security of being with a larger company, the stress and location of the job, etc.

[Anonymous]

Master's degree matters more than undergrad, yes. That said, the quality of your undergrad degree does matter, especially if it is your final degree.

There is certainly some truth to your undergrad degree being what you make of it. I have gotten far more mileage career-wise out of my Master's degree, where my specialty is one of the top 3-rated programs in the US.

[Veteran Military Wife at Life Lessons of a Military Wife]

Why not do two years at your community college (and save up that money you would otherwise spend on room, board and high tuition), then apply to your "dream school". Many people don't know that colleges/universities actually have quotas they have to fill from community colleges...so it'll be easier to get in, less expensive, and when you get your Bachelor's, no one knows that you went to another school..just the one you graduated from. Just a thought...

[Jake]

Your chances of getting into Chicago's MBA program will be largely determined by your intelligence, drive, and professional experience at time of application. It is extremely difficult to get in. You should give lots of thought to what course of action you would take if you thought you were very unlikely to get into Chicago's MBA program no matter what you did.

[Steve]

I graduated from DePaul's MBA program 2 years ago and I followed the same plan you are proposing. I went to a community college right out of high school and then completed my undergraduate degree in business at ISU (Illinois State University). I felt I had an advantage in choosing the graduate school of my choice, since I had no student loans and I was able to save a fair amount of money to put towards a solid business school. Honestly, when I was looking for a job after graduate school, no one ever commented on my undergraduate degree. Not sure if a better undergrad degree would have helped, but I don't think it hurt.

[aa]

Why bother now?

Apply to both NIU and UChicago. Ask again if both accept you.

[Dan]

Read the first few comments and then skimmed the rest, my apologies if I'm being redundant.

Sounds like you're looking to go straight from undergrad to an MBA program -- U of C may not even accept students doing that. At a minimum look into the prospects of U of C accepting students right out of undergrad. And if you are going straight from undergrad, where you get the degree matters. If you have a few years of work experience under your belt, the name on your degree becomes less important than your accomplishments after school. If you forgo those accomplishments in the business world, all you have is your GPA and the name of the school on your degree. In that scenario, the reputation of the school you go to is pretty darn important.

[Emily C]

Personally, I would take the time you'd have to spend working to afford the last two years and invest it in getting stellar grades at a state school.

And investigate the requirements for Univ. of Chicago's MBA program RIGHT NOW. So you know what you're up against. Usually you can find statistics on the students admitted to a program for any given year, too, if you hunt long enough.

[Heidi]

What do you plan to do after you complete your MBA? Are you thinking I-banking? Management? Financial Services? If so, go to a top tier undergrad and intern before going for the MBA. If you're planning on being an entreprenuer, you don't need the pricey MBA.

And good luck doing the undergrad MBA back-to-back. I sat on an adcom for a couple of years and our preferences ran towards students with at least three years work experience, prospects interested in entreprenurship, quant grads who could write well, and those who went to a different undergrad school (different profs and different world views make for a better classroom and educational experience - we didn't need people who had already knew "our way" to go onto grad school in our programs).

[lu3]

Speaking as a former undergraduate at the University of Chicago, with many classmates who transferred in after a couple of years elsewhere, the U of C is unlikely to transfer many of your credits from the two year school and you will be starting basically over as a freshman. That said, the U of C's undergraduate Common Core is the BEST undergraduate foundation you will find anywhere in the country and they are justly proud of it. It is expensive, but if you can afford it, it is worth it.

NIU is a very good school, and an undergraduate degree from there with good grades and a resume showing interest and activity in fields related to your planned career should be sufficient to get you access to the Graduate Business School at the U of C.

Good Luck!

[Diane]

As another MBA'er from The Ohio State University, and with a friend with multiple degrees and a stellar academic record who did the UC in Finance MBA as a second masters, I have to say that the advice you've been given here is all very sound.

UC's MBA will be extremely selective. Start now to see what they will want. I applied to two schools and was accepted at both, but the entry requirements differed, as did they kind of students they wanted. I had high GMATs which helped in both cases. OSU had essay questions, 3 letters of recommendation, the work history (WITH ACCOMPLISHMENTS) and community service, as well as the interview. There were only 2 students in our MBA class of about 100 students who had no work experience. One was from France, where it is not common, and the other was a pharma student with the undergrad degree being from OSU who had changed what she wanted to do. But she was an exceptional all-around person and a good asset to our team. I am sure she is doing well now as well.

I too would suspect that community college will not look good on the resume -- ever -- and it's permanent, particularly when transcripts are required, even when transferring credits -- unless in your work and drive you show that you had been a goof-off in high school and had now seen the error in your ways and were buckling down and showing what you were made of. Community college education is like high school for dummies way more often than a quality education (there are exceptions).

Think of it this way: Why would the Univ of Chicago want to have YOU representing THEM (and all their alumni) everywhere you go? This is what they are considering when they select you. Find out what they want. You could even set up a preliminary interview with their MBA Director to discuss your life goals.

I had great advice from the Director at the school I chose NOT to go to, when talking about a degree in Consulting (which they did not offer). She said, "You have to consult in SOMEthing." She was absolutely right.

[Nicole]

Hi there! I think this is a really noble question in the sense that you are thinking things through and setting a plan- in a mature and realistic manner. In my experience, this is my answer:

Meet in the middle: Balance savings in a 4-yr school with value of a good grad program and this is why...If you do well in your studies (undergrad), then you will have a good chance of getting into a decent grad. school...at which point, you can assume the extra cost (considering you didnt spend as much as you could have undergrad). This also gives you the advantage of hopefully getting a position working for a professor (paid or work study) which lowers your costs (or debt). In my experience, the old saying "if theres a will, theres a way" really holds true. So, maybe your undergrad selection isnt a shoe-in at a higher ranking grad school. But, if you really want it, there are ways to get in. -- take classes part-time and build a reputation and then reapply. Usually, you can get in (and they have something to go off of to give you more scholarships/grants). I also strongly agree with the suggestion to work and make use of the tuition reimbursement benefits that many employers offer. All in all, degrees DO matter, and where you get them from matter as well- but as someone who came out of a no-name school (small private, highly regarded school- but only in PA) I have found that what is more important is the degree itself. Ive been on a zillion interviews and no one (again, except locals) have heard of my undergrad school- but I did attend graduate courses at a bigger school later-- and even that really doesnt matter as much as the degrees themselves. Education is mentioned, but EXPERIENCE is honed in on. Gain as much experience as you can, because thats the real setback when looking for a job.

Good Luck and enjoy your college years- its over far too soon (I never thought I would say that!!)

[Matt Ranlett]

I agree with Nicole for the most part. Education is great and opens doors for you, but only for so long and it really depends on the industry. Software and IT? No one cares where you went to school 2 weeks after you get out of school b/c your skills are going to mostly be useless. Medicine and Law? School is really REALLY important to get the choice jobs but once you are in, it's you proving yourself all over again.

School can make a difference in where you start in an organization, but has almost no bearing on where you end up. If you work hard and are good at what you do, an MBA might be a waste of time. Might be. You need to be a self-starter and make a name for yourself. Be excellent at whatever you do and you'll be fine!

[Meg]

If you want to get an MBA from U of C, then all you need to worry about right now is how to get into that school. What undergrad you go to isn't nearly as important as 1) your grades, 2) your GMAT scores, 3) your job experience, 4) your leadership positions, community involvement, and extracurricular activities.

My opinion is you can probably excel more at NIU. U of C is super competitive even at the undergraduate level. If you go to NIU you are more likely to be able to make straight A's and get leadership positions in student organizations.

On the other hand if you don't go right into the MBA program after college (which you probably shouldn't/can't), then an undergrad degree at U of C you might get you a better job after graduation (some employers recruit exclusively at schools like U of C). That would indirectly improve your odds at getting into the MBA program there. PLUS while you're at U of C you can make connections with professors AND other students that might propel you farther in your career and/or improve your odds of getting into the MBA program.

I agree with others that you should get a job first and get employers to help with MBA cost.

[plonkee]

Thinking critically, are you of the calibre to get into U of C? If you could get in easily, then it doesn't matter as much where you go, you'll always be an excellent candidate. If you are borderline, then you might get a better undergraduate education at U of C. If it's a long shot for undergrad, then it's probably a long shot for your MBA too.

Also, those are not the only two colleges in the world. Is there somewhere else that might offer scholarships to transfer students, or other advantages at reasonable cost?

Getting an MBA is not really the goal that you need - it's what you want to do with your education that will really help you decide which is the best course of action. And it's certain that having 3+ years work experience will be beneficial in both getting in to B-School, and getting a job when you graduate.

[Brandon]

I actually even suspect that in the case of a Masters that often the school you attend does not matter once you are a few years out of school and make your name known professionally. That said, I get the impression that since a lot of people get MBAs that the market there may be different than other Masters degrees.

[Sarah]

I'm trying to put this gently--if you are a good enough student to be admitted to the extremely competitive U. of Chicago (especially in these days when the population pressure means spots are even harder to win), then you are a good enough student to go somewhere better than NIU with substantial financial aid. Unfortunately, given the description of your academic career to date, this seems unlikely. I don't want to discourage anyone from chasing their dreams, but I wouldn't put a lot of eggs in the Chicago basket.

[Tim]

It really depends. Pedigrees don't necessarily guarantee anything, especially when you've been in the field longer than 2 years. I have yet to see any benefit from my pedigree. personally, i'd focus on getting good grades in undergrad rather than focusing on where you attend for undergrad if your primary objective is grad school. i have yet to see that where you attended as an undergrad really matters for application to grad school. since grad school will trump undergrad at the end of the day, focus on the grad school if you really believe pedigree matters. pedigree may get you in an interview, but doesn't guarantee you the job. This has become more so over the past decade, where companies aren't going to hire you simply because you have ivory on your diploma. Your degree doesn't sell you, you sell yourself. it is hard to sell yourself, if all you have is 8 years of education under your belt, whereas someone else has 4 years education and 4 years work experience.

of course this is all dependent on the field and the region you are planning on entering. if you aren't going to be able to recoup the cost of your education in the field you are going to work, then why bother paying the premium for a high cost MBA or other grad school degrees?

also since MBAs are a dime a dozen, does the career field you want to enter really require an MBA, or is work experience more important? There are plenty more people in business without an MBA or didn't start out with an MBA. It's always nice when your company pays for your MBA rather than you, too.

[Evan Gray]

I have a big school decision to make as well. I just got accepted into Duke and the University of Georgia's Honors Program. I intend to major in business also, and am strongly considering getting my MBA sometime after I get my bachelor's. I don't know if it's worth paying all that money to go to Duke, when i can stay in state and save money at UGA and then get my MBA at a big-named school like Duke after.???