Comments on Tithe or Pay Off Debt -- Which One Should You Do First?TypePad2006-06-11T10:05:00ZNAhttps://www.freemoneyfinance.com/tag:typepad.com,2003:https://www.freemoneyfinance.com/2006/06/tithe_or_pay_of/comments/atom.xml/hazel commented on 'Tithe or Pay Off Debt -- Which One Should You Do First?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451bcbd69e2017d40ffd59f970c2013-02-12T14:26:02Z2013-02-12T19:14:09Zhazelpaying the tithes gives you your personal testimone, if you are a christian why not test him as he said...<p>paying the tithes gives you your personal testimone, if you are a christian why not test him as he said in the bible. i was not paying my tithes but from this month im going to test God and see if he wont hounor his words. he is the wonderful and faithful God. Amen</p>David Bendele commented on 'Tithe or Pay Off Debt -- Which One Should You Do First?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451bcbd69e2017ee71c26a6970d2013-01-09T03:59:26Z2013-01-09T10:52:24ZDavid Bendelehttp://profile.typepad.com/6p017d3fa5b595970cI see value in giving when one is in a place of need only if it is grounded in faith...<p>I see value in giving when one is in a place of need only if it is grounded in faith and not in works or because it is expected. And NOT because the law of Moses says to do so. If one person says to God "I have only twenty dollars and I need $200 to pay my debts I am going to give this twenty asking you God to give me the rest that I need." The value of this kind of generosity is that it is recognizing our utter dependence on God. It also is not denying the need to pay our debts. But this is not all. We must evidence belief that God will answer so the next thing to do is to work our buts off like a farmer who is expecting rain sent from God to bless his labors. </p>David Bendele commented on 'Tithe or Pay Off Debt -- Which One Should You Do First?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451bcbd69e2017c3576f904970b2013-01-08T23:55:39Z2013-01-09T10:52:24ZDavid Bendelehttp://profile.typepad.com/6p017d3fa5b595970cMalachi 3:9 You are under a curse--the whole nation of you--because you are robbing me. Gal 3:13 But Christ has...<p>Malachi 3:9 You are under a curse--the whole nation of you--because you are robbing me. Gal 3:13 But Christ has rescued us from the curse pronounced by the law. When he was hung on the cross, he took upon himself the curse for our wrongdoing. For it is written in the Scriptures, "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree." Romans 8:15 For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." Romans 10:4 Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes. Romans 3:22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, Galatians 2:16 know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified. Galatians 3:25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law. Acts 13:39 Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses. Galatians 3:11 Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." Romans 1:17 For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith." Galatians 3:10 All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."</p>EyesOpened! commented on 'Tithe or Pay Off Debt -- Which One Should You Do First?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451bcbd69e2017ee5e8d4e7970d2012-12-04T16:51:06Z2012-12-04T16:51:06ZEyesOpened!To Ramona_svp@yahoo.com OMG! yeah, I've experienced/know your situation ohhh so very well!!! Ok, first thing you need to do is...<p>To Ramona_svp@yahoo.com OMG! yeah, I've experienced/know your situation ohhh so very well!!! Ok, first thing you need to do is LEAVE THAT CHURCH! It's obviously motivated my MONEY, manipulation, and control not LOVE...I just left a ministry that made you feel bad or obligated to give even if that meant sacrificing your OWN well being. I USED to be an avid tithe, offering and sacrificial offering giver. But after several evictions, repos, and being homeless...I FINALLY woke up! God is my SOURCE and he provides us with a RE-SOURCE our jobs! God provides for US thru our resource he's not going to rain money down from heaven. yes! I do believe in financial miracles and unexpected gifts. I just haven't received one yet...somethings happen for us to WAKE UP!!!! AND USE COMMON SENSE! I had to think about it...(scenario) I have money thru my resource that God(source) has provided to pay my rent, and I give 10% of that to the church and hope and pray God gives it back?!?!? and when he doesn't and I get evicted did God fail? No! God expects you to TAKE CARE OF YOU! thru that which he(source) has provided. My financial situation has NOT changed for the better or worse when I DO or DON'T have money to Tithe. I know, the bible says "I'm cursed with a curse when I don't give.." but I LOST EVERYTHING when I did!!!....Now, financially things are not perfect! But I've been able to maintain and when I can give I give. </p>ramona_svp@yahoo.com commented on 'Tithe or Pay Off Debt -- Which One Should You Do First?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451bcbd69e2017d3d62ac2b970c2012-11-07T18:25:21Z2012-11-07T18:25:21Zramona_svp@yahoo.comOKAY HERE GOES, I HAVE BEEN A TITHER FOR 5 YEARS, LAST SUNDAY I WAS CHASTISE AND STARED DOWN, BY...<p>OKAY HERE GOES, I HAVE BEEN A TITHER FOR 5 YEARS, LAST SUNDAY I WAS CHASTISE AND STARED DOWN, BY MY PASTOR, FOR SEVERAL MINUTES, I WAS GETTING UPSET, AND HE LAUGHED ABD TOLD ME "U HAVE A ANGER PROBLEM" YES! YOU JUST BULLIED ME AND MY HUBBY, BECAUSE I DID NOT GIVE THIS MONTH. IF I HAD IT WOULD OF BEEN MY FOOD AND GAS MONEY. I AM ALREADY STRUGGLING ON ONE INCOME SINCE I AM FILING FOR DISABILITY. WE HAVE NO MONEY TO GIVE SIR AND IF AND WHEN WE DO HAVE EXTRA, WE GIVE! IF I HAD GIVEN THIS MONTH, I COULD NOT PAY MY BILLS OR EAT. I ALREADY HAVE EATING ISSUES, LOST 75 POUNDS, WAS A 16 NOW I AM A SIZE 4, I AM FREEZING AND HUNGRY.( WE HAD CHURCH IN MY HOUSE FOR A YEAR AND A HALF, NO HELP WITH PGE 600.00 WHEN WE ASK FOR HELP, IT WAS NO! SO THEY MOVED ON TO THE NEXT HOUSE TO PREACH!!! OMG I NEED SOME HELP HERE, FEELING CONFUSED!</p>Lee commented on 'Tithe or Pay Off Debt -- Which One Should You Do First?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451bcbd69e2017c31fd4c10970b2012-09-19T21:54:55Z2012-09-19T21:54:55ZLeeThanks. I'm even a minister's wife and I've been struggling this same way. I really needed your answer today; I...<p>Thanks. I'm even a minister's wife and I've been struggling this same way. I really needed your answer today; I guess my faith has just been so low lately. thanks</p>Cllif commented on 'Tithe or Pay Off Debt -- Which One Should You Do First?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451bcbd69e2017743df16f2970d2012-08-03T04:19:55Z2012-08-03T04:19:55ZCllifThe tithe was OT Law of agriculteral produce 'of increase' from the work of God not mans Labour. The tithe...<p>The tithe was OT Law of agriculteral produce 'of increase' from the work of God not mans Labour. The tithe was to maintain the levical priesthood which ceased 70AD when the Temple was destroyed. Our High Priest is Jesus Christ and us as members of a Royal priesthood- note Priests Do NOT pay tithes ( they recvive them !!). Tiithes were also comsumed by the people and collected FOR THE POOR. THE POOR those scrapping by do not pay tithes if yopu are willing to still be u8nder OT Law and not grace offerings, bearing in mind obey one Law be judged by the Law. In fact the personjs Chruch shopuld be standing alongside this person in debt to see how they can help- and meet6 their needs as should those of His famuily in Christ. Jesus never paid tithes, Tithes are a daeth Tax and if anyone is in a hurry to Die under Law, having rejected Grace, I suggest they re-examine their Bible and stop listening to lies originating with Rome in about 750 AQD before which the tithe was not taught or paid.<br />
So guilty conscieces about nothjinmg but the weay of Death..' Corban' is a nice word, a man that does no0t provide for members of Hi9sd own g family, denys thye faith and is worse than an unbeliever. Sounds like people first, God second to me and the Bible. </p>Scott BAUMANN commented on 'Tithe or Pay Off Debt -- Which One Should You Do First?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451bcbd69e20176161ec153970c2012-07-04T17:39:53Z2012-07-04T17:39:53ZScott BAUMANNYou are in fact, a fool The Bible does also say all sins are the same. So if this person...<p>You are in fact, a fool The Bible does also say all sins are the same. So if this person and you TRULY believe in your God, you would know that no amount of tithing can make up for UNFORGIVEN sins this person may have or is still committing. How foolish the man who builds his house upon the sand. Sure, lose your home, but give to a god, and he will reward you many times over.<br />
The bible tells you not to "Test" god So what the hell are you doing by not paying your bills and expecting him to find a way to cover the shortages. <br />
You should be arrested as the charlatan and fraud you are. Despicable advice. Atrocious.<br />
Scott Baumann BOISE IDAHO write me all who want to tell me how wrong I am </p>Beansters commented on 'Tithe or Pay Off Debt -- Which One Should You Do First?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451bcbd69e201676677147c970b2012-05-13T13:04:57Z2012-05-13T14:49:25ZBeanstersThe book of Malachi was aimed directly at the chief priests who were taking the good fine offerings of the...<p>The book of Malachi was aimed directly at the chief priests who were taking the good fine offerings of the people and selling them to line their own pockets whilst replaceing them with blind, lame and sick animals to make the sacrifices with. at no point does Malachi address the common people. the priests were treating God with utter contempt in their actions and it was this the Lord was eager to correct with his words of rebuke, and then encouragement to repent and stop ripping of both him and the whole nation. As Jesus became the sacrifice for our sins, we no longer have to DO anything in order to win the love and blessings of God. Abraham was blessed and rich long before he ever gave a tithe, and that tithe was a voluntary one and then only take from the spoils of war and not from his own personal wealth. The obligations we have are to love... this love will cause us to take care of our families and to share our wealth with those who are struggling or poor. If anything, the person who asked for advise should be supported and helped out of their present situation by - THE CHURCH - the people who call themselves Christians yet still manage to prize what little there is to pay bills with, in order to line the bulging pockets of the already wealthy church! STOREHOUSE... a place where those who were struggling could go and find provision that they did not need to go hungry - every 3rd year that was where the jewish tithe went. year 7 there was not tithe - in fact God COMMANDED them to not tithe so that the land could rest... It is important if you are going to live under a long since crucified jewish LAW, that you read what it was all about. there was no instruction to carpenters, doctors, weavers, etc etc etc to pay a tithe... only to those who grew crops on the land within Isreal or who raised cattle on that land. the tithe was taken to the place GOD chose and there they were commanded to EAT their tithe and celebrate before HIM. what was left went to the levites and a tenth of that to the priests... the same priest who God was giving a dressing down to in Mal 3... the same Mal 3 that has been twisted and abused in order to rob the people in the modern age, the age where we have no need to bribe God to bless us... maddens me. those with a giving and loving heart have that squoze out of them by legalism... please please please know you are free to give according to what you what you determine in your heart. Perhaps we should sacrifice a few bulls as well if we are going to return to the LAW to be sure God will bless us???? </p>Niama Perrotte commented on 'Tithe or Pay Off Debt -- Which One Should You Do First?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451bcbd69e201676442fb03970b2012-03-26T19:05:16Z2012-03-26T19:05:16ZNiama Perrottehttp://www.freemoneyfinance.comThank you<p>Thank you</p>BigT commented on 'Tithe or Pay Off Debt -- Which One Should You Do First?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451bcbd69e2014e6102c930970c2011-04-17T22:54:11Z2011-04-17T22:54:11ZBigTI've always applied this principal ever since I became a Christian. Even in the hard times like I'm going through...<p>I've always applied this principal ever since I became a Christian. Even in the hard times like I'm going through now I tithe. I always seem to have the money to pay off my debts. Also it's my understanding we should also be tithing our time besides our money. Really it comes down to the fact that tithing brings in the whole aspect of giving. It challenges your attitute of holding onto the little you have. It's also taught me that God is our source and not our jobs. God can provide in amazing ways, from items you need been hughly discounted at the right time to money just coming in through the post. How can money have a hold on us when we give. Of course God also expects us to be good stuarts of the 90% we do end up with. Is he really going to bless us if we squander it on things we don't need. I've had no permanent job for 5 months because I was made redundant. I've tithed and so far the money has come in every month to cover my mortgages and other obligations. I have $15 in the bank at present. The bibles says that he provides milk and honey. Sometimes God withdraws the honey (for our wants), but he always provides the milk (for our needs)</p>FMF commented on 'Tithe or Pay Off Debt -- Which One Should You Do First?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451bcbd69e2014e86f4d2fe970d2011-03-25T12:38:40Z2011-03-25T12:38:40ZFMFhttp://www.freemoneyfinance.comTracy -- It's been almost five years since this was posted and we've discussed the topic several times since then....<p>Tracy --</p>
<p>It's been almost five years since this was posted and we've discussed the topic several times since then. If you'd like to see my thoughts on the various issues, the best way is to go to my "The Bible and Money" category and read through the tithing-related posts.</p>
<p>You can start here:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.freemoneyfinance.com/the_bible_and_money/" rel="nofollow">http://www.freemoneyfinance.com/the_bible_and_money/</a></p>Tracy commented on 'Tithe or Pay Off Debt -- Which One Should You Do First?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451bcbd69e20147e3716228970b2011-03-24T21:51:32Z2011-03-24T21:51:32ZTracy# Only Levite priests could collect tithes, and there are no Levite priests today. # Only food products from the...<p># Only Levite priests could collect tithes, and there are no Levite priests today.</p>
<p># Only food products from the land were tithable.</p>
<p># Money was never a titheable commodity.</p>
<p># Christian converts were never asked to tithe anything to the Church.</p>
<p># Tithing in the Church first appears centuries after completion of the Bible.</p>
<p>Posted by: Robert | May 30, 2007 at 09:02 AM </p>
<p>Forgot these 2:</p>
<p># Abraham never tithed on his own personal property or livestock.</p>
<p># Jacob wouldn’t tithe until God blessed him first.</p>
<p>Would you send your link to these responses. It would be great if you posted the responses to these right here. It would be most helpful, since these responses are right from the bible and there should be no contradiction. </p>Kyle commented on 'Tithe or Pay Off Debt -- Which One Should You Do First?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451bcbd69e2014e86ec13c0970d2011-03-23T22:54:01Z2011-03-23T22:54:01ZKyleGreat advice! This is where I have an issue with Dave Ramsey as well. I hear him tell people on...<p>Great advice! This is where I have an issue with Dave Ramsey as well. I hear him tell people on his radio show "God doesn't need your money". This is true, but he does need our faith and obedience to what He has asked of us.</p>Candee commented on 'Tithe or Pay Off Debt -- Which One Should You Do First?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451bcbd69e20134885789ff970c2010-10-20T16:45:04Z2010-10-20T16:45:04ZCandeeWow, I've never actually met anyone else who sees this as clearly as I do! Thank you for sharing this.<p>Wow, I've never actually met anyone else who sees this as clearly as I do! Thank you for sharing this.</p>John Bryant commented on 'Tithe or Pay Off Debt -- Which One Should You Do First?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451bcbd69e20134884d340f970c2010-10-19T03:40:30Z2010-10-19T03:40:30ZJohn BryantIt is a breach of contract if you are late in paying back borrowed money and morally wrong. Surely, you...<p>It is a breach of contract if you are late in paying back borrowed money and morally wrong. Surely, you should pay your overdue debts before making tithes as otherwise you are giving that which is not yours to give.<br />
Debt itself is not sinful, if properly managed and repayment is not overdue.</p>jay commented on 'Tithe or Pay Off Debt -- Which One Should You Do First?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451bcbd69e20134861babe0970c2010-08-10T14:41:56Z2010-08-10T14:41:56ZjayI know this is an old post, but I question whether it is just to consider your income your own...<p>I know this is an old post, but I question whether it is just to consider your income your own if you owe it to someone. I think it is dependent on the terms of the loan. For instance, if I have a 30 year mortgage, that's an agreement to pay a debt over 30 years, so I don't feel compelled to overpay before tithing. But if I borrow $1000 from my brother with the expectation I will pay him back with the first $1000 i get, then don't I owe that to my brother? All assets belong to God, but the asset's I borrow are under the stewardship of another, and you deny them their responsibility to choose it's path by tithing it. That being said, i still tithe after tax, but before all else.</p>PREACHER WOMAN commented on 'Tithe or Pay Off Debt -- Which One Should You Do First?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451bcbd69e20133f283dce4970b2010-07-24T04:05:55Z2010-07-24T04:05:55ZPREACHER WOMANhttp://www.blogger.ukSorry for all you naysayers. The bible says he will store up the wealth of the wicked for the righteous....<p>Sorry for all you naysayers. The bible says he will store up the wealth of the wicked for the righteous.</p>
<p>There's way too many testimonials for financial blessing than the other way around - and as for growing "OUT OF CHRISTIANITY" - you are confessing being a back-slider. What why you do that on open internet? And have you found a new way to get the "UNIVERSE" to respond to your every need?<br />
Give me a break.<br />
</p>Andrea commented on 'Tithe or Pay Off Debt -- Which One Should You Do First?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451bcbd69e2013484a6a018970c2010-06-19T11:59:52Z2010-06-19T11:59:52ZAndreaIt comes down to a simple question...... Who do you TRULY trust with your life?!? God is not looking for...<p>It comes down to a simple question......<br />
Who do you TRULY trust with your life?!? God is not looking for your money but your obedience and your faith. God's Word says He is to get the first fruits....not the after thoughts and He will provide all needs (not wants, desires or vacations but needs). Trust in the Lord and He will provide the way to pay your bills with what is left. It is the only concept in the Bible that the Lord challenges us to test Him on.</p>Dylan commented on 'Tithe or Pay Off Debt -- Which One Should You Do First?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451bcbd69e2013484172eab970c2010-06-14T11:58:09Z2010-06-14T11:58:09ZDylanWe live in a world where personal wealth has been been built largely by taking advantage of easy credit available...<p>We live in a world where personal wealth has been been built largely by taking advantage of easy credit available and enjoying the 'growth' in house prices etc that run off the back of easy credit/debt. Where Christians have involved themselves in taking on debt, they have ignored clear Biblical guidelines about not borrowing, owing no man anything, the borrower being servant to the lender, etc. I say this to make this point...if you can't tithe because of your debt obligations, be it a house mortgage or whatever, the devil has you ensared. God is gracious, repent and acknowledge that you have become led astray by the ways of the world and the sin of debt, re-commit to tithing whatever the cost and trust God to lead you out of debt. Commit never to go back into debt again. Our hearts can easily be deceived so be careful if you test the legitimacy of tithing by how you feel, rather go to God's Word and build your conviction ftom there. 10% is just the start...get a new mindset and get excited about the time when you can live off the 10% and tithe 90%. You can't out-give God and tithing is a powerful way of living by faith and also breaking the love of money in your life and also allowing God to prosper you. Debt is a short-cut that circumvents the need for God and is a sure way to end up in the devil's snare. I have experienced God's goodness in this area and I encourage you to get real with Him about your finances, repent for your disobedience in the area of debt, and then journal as he leads you out into green pastures. God bless.</p>Aurelio commented on 'Tithe or Pay Off Debt -- Which One Should You Do First?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451bcbd69e201347fa1111c970c2010-04-04T04:05:47Z2010-04-04T04:05:47ZAurelio oh yeah i forgot money is dept if we used all the money that was in circulation to pay our...<p>oh yeah i forgot money is dept if we used all the money that was in circulation to pay our dept there would be no paper money left and we would still be in dept. </p>Aurelio commented on 'Tithe or Pay Off Debt -- Which One Should You Do First?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451bcbd69e20133ec7122b1970b2010-04-04T03:52:04Z2010-04-04T03:52:04ZAurelio If I go to church and remember that I didnt bring my tithe and I say to my brother let...<p>If I go to church and remember that I didnt bring my tithe and I say to my brother let me borrow a hundred dollars to pay my tithe. Is that wrong? I think so also if I borrow money because im not makeing enough to pay my bills is that cociderd an increse i dont think so in this society we live off a system of credit if you are in dept there is no increase until you pay your dept. </p>Kelly commented on 'Tithe or Pay Off Debt -- Which One Should You Do First?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451bcbd69e20120a948f01e970b2010-03-17T15:21:04Z2010-03-17T15:21:04ZKellyIf you look at ALL of what the Bible says about tithing, it's clear that we're not just supposed to...<p>If you look at ALL of what the Bible says about tithing, it's clear that we're not just supposed to 'give' 10% to "the Lord" or to the church. See Deuteronomy chapters 14 and 26, for example. We're supposed to dedicate firtfruits and the tithe to the Lord. We're supposed to enjoy or "eat" some of our tithes "in the presense of the Lord", in thankful celebration. We're also supposed to use our tithes to support our spiritual leaders and to help those in need within our communities.</p>
<p>The bad news, for some of us, is that we don't just get to give 10% to the church and we're done with it. The worse news, for some of our spiritual teachers and leaders, is that they're not actually entitled to receive and control the entire tithe. </p>
<p>The good news for everyone is that God does want us to enjoy a portion of the very first and very best of what he blesses us with. He just wants us to draw close to him in doing so, with a thankful, obedient, and generous heart.</p>FMF commented on 'Tithe or Pay Off Debt -- Which One Should You Do First?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451bcbd69e20120a825811b970b2010-01-29T13:26:50Z2010-01-29T13:26:50ZFMFhttp://www.freemoneyfinace.comTim -- 1. I'm sure you realize that scholars and other highly educated people disagree on this subject, correct? To...<p>Tim --</p>
<p>1. I'm sure you realize that scholars and other highly educated people disagree on this subject, correct? To imply that you are absolutely right and that I am wrong (and insulting me along the way to boot) displays an ignorance of this basic fact and is poor form IMO.</p>
<p>2. Here's what happens: </p>
<p>I write a post. </p>
<p>3 1/2 years later, someone like yourself, never before heard from on this blog (maybe you're a long-time reader, but I don't ever remember seeing a comment from you) stumbles along and comments that they "find it interesting that you refuse to engage those who are calling on you to explain why you are taking the versus out of context." Have you read all the other posts I have on the topic before and since? No, of course not. I suggest you do that before you leave a comment that's really off topic (this is about tithing versus paying off debt.)</p>
<p>3. I generally do not "engage" in posts after several years. I've written 6,000 posts or so since that time and if I engage on every one, then I'd never post again.</p>Tim commented on 'Tithe or Pay Off Debt -- Which One Should You Do First?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451bcbd69e20120a8211252970b2010-01-29T02:12:47Z2010-01-29T02:12:47ZTimFMF: I find it interesting that you refuse to engage those who are calling on you to explain why you...<p>FMF:</p>
<p>I find it interesting that you refuse to engage those who are calling on you to explain why you are taking the versus out of context, instead referring them to the articles in which you took the scriptures out of context in the first place.</p>
<p>What is your biblical training? I ask because I see signs of very serious hermeneutical errors in your biblical interpretation. Including:</p>
<p>1. Interpreting Proverbs as a command or even a promise. Proverbs are poetry, and they convey general principles and wisdom and they paint with a broad brush.</p>
<p>2. Not understanding the difference between a Promissory Covenent (such as the Abrahamic Covenant and Davidic Covenent), and an administrative Covenant (such as the Mosaic Covenant and New Covenant). The Promissory Covenants are everlasting, but the adminstrative covenants can be replaced - i.e. the Mosaic Law has been replaced with the new Covenant (see Jeremiah 31:31-36), which Jesus inaugurated at the last Supper(Matthew 26:27-29).</p>
<p>3. Not being familiar with what the tithe was in the OT - the tithe was the 10% given from the increase in the lands - it was basically grain. It is not the same as the first fruits, and first born offerings, which had nothing to do with a percentage of anything. It was they act of acknowledging that verything we have, we owe to God, therefore we give him something of value from it (a small token of the best that we have or what we value).</p>
<p>I don't have time to go into more, but many points have been raised by others regarding the fact that the command to tithing puts the new testament Christian under law instead of under grace which is precisely what Paul preaches against in many of his letters, most notably Galatians. </p>
<p>FMF, I respect your knowledge and expertise in matters of money. But when you speak as an authority on matters related to scripture, please understand how serious of a matter this is to God. We are to rightly divide the Word of God, and in my opinion, you haven't shown that you are qualified to do that. Please don't take this as a personal insult, because I do want to encourage what you are doing here in terms of helping people sort through their finances, and I sincerely hope God continues to bless you in that endeavor.</p>Nicole commented on 'Tithe or Pay Off Debt -- Which One Should You Do First?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451bcbd69e20128767d0c93970c2009-12-24T17:13:50Z2009-12-24T17:13:50ZNicoleI totally agree with putting the tithe first above all else. I too have been in a position where I...<p>I totally agree with putting the tithe first above all else. I too have been in a position where I was forced to choose between a bill and the tithe and thru many a hard lesson I've realized that I CAN'T afford NOT to tithe. Everything just works out better financially, physically and spiritually when I do. God is true to His promises!!!</p>Rita commented on 'Tithe or Pay Off Debt -- Which One Should You Do First?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451bcbd69e201157039dfb8970b2009-04-22T02:57:36Z2009-04-22T02:57:36ZRitaHere is the problem I have with a violent adherence to tithing while being unable to get out of debt:...<p>Here is the problem I have with a violent adherence to tithing while being unable to get out of debt: if you are in debt you are being poor stewards of what God has given you, and if you don't correct the situation, you will become a large burden on others in the future (family, government, etc.)</p>
<p>Tithing is also not about a monthly, weekly, or daily 'fee.' It is about giving the best of what God has given you back to God. It is about gratitude, and about selflessness. (In contrast, excessive debt is often caused by selfishness.) Tithing relates to time, talent and treasure, not just treasure. So if you are financially in debt, I think you should shift your tithe to time and talent while you lose your debt, and then - once you are financially stable and being a good steward of all you have - then you can reintroduce financial tithing. </p>
<p>Or, lower your financial tithe for awhile while you improve your situation, and increase time and talent contributions.</p>
<p>I recently advised a family member to write up a 'deferred payment plan' for his tithing because he was in terrible debt and about to lose his house. If you are making a $300 tithe each month and NOT making your $500 mortgage payment, then you are risking the lives and safety of your wife and family and NOT being a good steward at all. I told him to donate $200 of time and talent each month, and then write a list of the $100 he owes each month. If he follows his plan he will be out of debt within a year and can then pay off the financial portion.</p>
<p>I fully believe in tithing - and I believe in going beyond 10% to give as much as we can. But I also believe we need to be good stewards first and foremost of the gifts we are given, be they spouses, children, or material comforts.</p>Rodney commented on 'Tithe or Pay Off Debt -- Which One Should You Do First?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451bcbd69e20111686781d1970c2009-02-16T11:32:28Z2009-02-16T11:32:28ZRodneyThe posts here are interesting. They only further reveal the fact that there is something mysterious about how God works....<p>The posts here are interesting. They only further reveal the fact that there is something mysterious about how God works. We can never claim to understand God fully. </p>michelle commented on 'Tithe or Pay Off Debt -- Which One Should You Do First?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451bcbd69e20111685cd75f970c2009-02-12T12:03:21Z2009-02-12T12:03:22ZmichelleI didn't read all, but didn't notice anyone talking about the fact that so many of us are not obligated...<p>I didn't read all, but didn't notice anyone talking about the fact that so many of us are not obligated to pay the whole debt (credit cards, etc.) at once. If you can afford the minimum pymt., then you are free to tithe. No, God is not a heavenly slot machine, but the scriptures, if interpreted properly, are clear about trust in God. God wants us to be completely dependent upon Him. The more we trust, the more grace he pours out upon us. For those who think it is easy to give money and not time, you may not know that when my husband and I give to a homeless shelter for troubled or runnaway teens, our family of 7 is not going on vacation. How about a new van? Are we going to wait on the Government to save us all from recession or can we hope to help each other in these times. How good it feels to take the edge off of someone elses suffering. Since we got honest with ourselves about real needs, and we started to tithe fully, we have gone from 47,000. in credit card debt to 27,000 in less than a year. Money keeps coming in lumps. I got on this site because we are poss. in need of a new van and starting to sink a bit as Peter did while walking on water toward Jesus. Now I am convinced once more in the Providence of God, as well as the obligation to steer clear from debt in the first place. Before tithing, I, not my husband, didn't seem to have the will to change my ways of overspending. Mysteriously, I have a new strength to do the right thing. We can blame Washington for overspending, but truth is is that so many of us have contributed to the financial mess too. Only God can pull us out of this recession...if only we ask and do what he tells us. God Bless. <br />
</p>Jennifer commented on 'Tithe or Pay Off Debt -- Which One Should You Do First?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451bcbd69e2010537148370970b2009-02-06T20:02:11Z2009-02-06T20:02:11ZJenniferFMF - christians who believe in tithing are probably no worse at demonstrating the validity of tithing through their giving...<p>FMF - christians who believe in tithing are probably no worse at demonstrating the validity of tithing through their giving than christians are at proving out any of their other beliefs through behavior. We should all advocate what is moral and we will all fall short of true morality (we will all sin). <a href="http://www.barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?Page=BarnaUpdate&BarnaUpdateID=139" rel="nofollow">http://www.barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?Page=BarnaUpdate&BarnaUpdateID=139</a> <br />
Reference: Romans 3:23</p>
<p>New testament believers are supposed to give to support the ministry, support one another in our needs, and to help out the poor and needy. If we are led by the Spirit as opposed to coerced by legalism, our lives will reflect this. However, only God knows the heart and therefore the intentions behind someone's modern "tithe" or behind another's free will giving. Note that in 1 Cor. 16 that Paul did say to give in accordance with how much one makes, but did not say to give a tithe or to give 10%. Also I thought that this was a particularly good blog entry about the purpose of the collection in 1 Cr 16. <a href="http://www.sammarsh.net/?p=638" rel="nofollow">http://www.sammarsh.net/?p=638</a><br />
References: (1 Cor 9: 6,11,14; 2 Cor 8:13-15; 1 Cor. 16:102) </p>
<p>"The" tithe is currently impossible for anyone to give. Tithes were collected by the Levites because they did not earn a living - they served the kohanim (priests). (Num 18) New testament believers belong to the priesthood of believers with Jesus as the high priest. There is no longer an old testament priesthood (kohanim) or a system to support that priesthood (Levites who serve them). We are all in the priesthood.<br />
References (1 Peter 2:9; Hebrews 2:17; Hebrews 7) </p>
<p>A tithe was also commanded as a way to fund feasts to be eaten in the community before God as a way of giving thanks (equating this to the act of funding a building where Christians can go hear the Word of God preached as a fellowship time is the s t r e t c h.) Note that people drank alcohol at these feasts. This tithe was to be used to care for the poor every third year (or alternately it's possible that a third tithe was used to care for the poor every third year.) <br />
Reference: (Deut 14: 22-29)</p>
<p>Should someone pay off debt before they tithe? How about, should the church pool resources to help provide for everyone's needs & debts and then give generously as led by the Spirit? The original question assumes the church should "tithe" and it assumes that christians provide only for themselves as individuals and not collectively. It is therefore a flawed question and answering with either scenario is not supportable by scripture. The insistence that people who are not making ends meet (or just barely getting by and saddled by debt) give a legalistic 10% combined with the inaction by fellow church members to meet these people's needs is an impediment (for many) to hearing the Word of God preached and to taking part in Christian fellowship. Do you not think the church will be held accountable for this?<br />
Reference: Acts 2:44-47</p>ann commented on 'Tithe or Pay Off Debt -- Which One Should You Do First?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451bcbd69e2010535fa1b8e970b2008-11-18T22:00:21Z2008-11-18T22:00:21Zanncan tithes be given to the poor in lieu of paying to a church?<p>can tithes be given to the poor in lieu of paying to a church?</p>Tyrin commented on 'Tithe or Pay Off Debt -- Which One Should You Do First?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451bcbd69e2010535d75751970c2008-11-04T09:37:01Z2008-11-04T09:37:01ZTyrinhttp://www.myspace.com/tyrinhJust a thought. How did the first church live? How did Paul specify this to happen? If you have 2...<p>Just a thought.<br />
How did the first church live?<br />
How did Paul specify this to happen?</p>
<p>If you have 2 coats, give one to your brother, and sell all your posetions and bring it to the storehouse? were the initial churches self sustaining communes that look after each other? made sure people were clothed? and made sure they had food on their table, and had no debts?<br />
To me, this is the way in which the churches should be.<br />
How then did these people pay their ten percent, if they were giving 100 percent?<br />
Does the church look after you in your old age? clothe you? feed you?<br />
Will christ reject those who cast out demons in his name, because you never fed, clothed, and visited him in prison?</p>
<p>Tithing, is what the jews did.<br />
Are we not under a new covanent? <br />
Do we not have grace, and are all the laws done away with or not (with acception to the laws of God)?<br />
'Render unto ceasar what is ceasars and render unto me what is mine.' - Jesus</p>
<p>Should we not pay off our 'debts' and taxes to ceasar, and give Jesus what is his?<br />
What is his?<br />
Our lives?<br />
Devotion?<br />
spreading salvation?<br />
missions?<br />
Do you think God needs your money?</p>
<p>i think there is a whole other side to this, than complaining about money.<br />
I dont think God really cares about our money.<br />
He cares about our service however.</p>
<p>Giving tithe, and attending service is questionable.<br />
No fruits.<br />
Unless you serve, you are not honouring God and through service, you will give to him what is his.<br />
As when you are in ministry, your pocket goes with you.<br />
The church, and us would be more prosperous. in all forms.<br />
not only in 'finance'</p>
<p>This tithe and recieve business is also a 1st world doctrine, try teach it to those suffereing from malnutritian in darfur.<br />
The children working in factories in pakistan, to support their families.</p>
<p>Where is your tithe going?<br />
the latest version of photoshop?</p>
<p>I can promise you, God did not intend this.<br />
This is a selfish thing.<br />
Think about this all logically, you cannot fault this. <br />
Wake up.</p>Kiwi commented on 'Tithe or Pay Off Debt -- Which One Should You Do First?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451bcbd69e20105358ebb23970b2008-10-18T07:45:36Z2008-10-18T07:45:36ZKiwiCome to me all of you that are heavy laiden and I will give you rest. For my yoke is...<p>Come to me all of you that are heavy laiden and I will give you rest. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.</p>
<p>Oftentimes I feel quite the opposite. Perhaps I am still babe in Christ and I still drink a lot of milk...</p>
<p>To be a faithful Christian I need to give up a lot of things: pride, money, time, certain relationships, addiction... even my favorite exercise yoga!!</p>
<p>I will try my best to do what is demanded of me, as it is not my will but Thy will...I am just hoping that by doing so I am laying treasures in heaven...for eternal...</p>christy commented on 'Tithe or Pay Off Debt -- Which One Should You Do First?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451bcbd69e200e5540bcfe888342008-08-18T18:40:47Z2008-08-18T18:40:47ZchristyJust wanted to add, isn't a Christian a man who keeps his word? If you're a person who borrows money...<p>Just wanted to add, isn't a Christian a man who keeps his word? If you're a person who borrows money and neglects to pay it back, what does that say about your values? It takes more than just giving to a church to be a Christian.</p>Cristy Lenox commented on 'Tithe or Pay Off Debt -- Which One Should You Do First?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451bcbd69e200e553efdebb88332008-08-18T18:26:12Z2008-08-30T07:38:40ZCristy LenoxI know this is an old thread but was reading through hoping a scripture I'm searching for would be quoted....<p>I know this is an old thread but was reading through hoping a scripture I'm searching for would be quoted. I read the scripture awhile back and, for the life of me, cannot remember where it was! I've looked and looked throughout the Bible & am unable to locate it now. ANYWAY, I'm paraphrasing here, but it basically said that if one owed his brother, he should be in the field working to repay his debt instead of sitting in synagogue. If anyone happens to know this scripture would you PLEASE post it? Much thanks</p>Wade H commented on 'Tithe or Pay Off Debt -- Which One Should You Do First?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451bcbd69e200e553b9a69a88332008-07-26T01:44:25Z2008-08-27T12:42:35ZWade HTithing was never money, although they had tons of it in the new and old testament. When you read Deut.14,...<p>Tithing was never money, although they had tons of it in the new and old testament. When you read Deut.14, you'll see when the tithe was exchanged for money because the God assigned location to offer the tithes was too far, God told them to buy what their heart desired, and to enjoy it with their families. Acts 15 speaks volumes about if new converts should be bound by the law. The Apostles verdict was to not place the same bondage they had on new believers. The leaders of the new testament church never taught it. If tithing was a mandate, why didn't Jesus tell the rich young ruler to give 10% to the church, then give the rest to the poor. Let the Holy Spirit guide you, and you might be surprised. He might tell you to give your money to that young lady(sister in Christ) sitting by you that's about to lose their home.</p>Susan commented on 'Tithe or Pay Off Debt -- Which One Should You Do First?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451bcbd69e200e553a7be8888342008-07-07T15:20:40Z2008-08-30T00:26:29ZSusanWowie! Nothing gets a slew of impassioned responses like the Bible and Christianity's interpretations of the passages. My take is...<p>Wowie! Nothing gets a slew of impassioned responses like the Bible and Christianity's interpretations of the passages. My take is that you should not give unless you have 100% love in your heart and do so freely, whatever the circumstances may be. I've given with love and I've given with resentment and I don't think you should give with the latter, it defeats the intent of giving. <br />
</p>Brian commented on 'Tithe or Pay Off Debt -- Which One Should You Do First?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451bcbd69e200e553813d9488332008-07-02T06:16:01Z2008-08-27T12:42:23ZBrianThis is a good thread. Allow me to add my 2 cents. I started my Christian walk by struggling with...<p>This is a good thread. Allow me to add my 2 cents. I started my Christian walk by struggling with tithing. I was made to feel guilty about not doing it because my Christian brothers were all doing it and I was given a churchwide mandate - follow my pastor and it is his responsibility for telling us his interpetations and the consequences rest on his shoulders. So I started off by giving 2% then got a raise then gave 5% then got another raise and settle at 10% of my gross without even "feeling it" and even gave more to the poor. I discovered my spiritual gift was in giving and not just money, but time and food. That I could give and feel the Holy Spirit burning inside of me. It was not just in spiritual matters but any kind of giving, beit a t-shirt or a business card or even shoes. This of course caused me to want to give more and more. I felt good, obviously because I was using my spiritual gift. I found that the best times the Spirit would burn would be when I would give not out of obediance but out of love. But then an issue of why I was mandated to tithe came up every month when I had to pay bills. I had also gotten myself close to 100K in debt because of a business venture and credit cards. Quitting giving is something someone with the gift of giving never wants to do, but there was no way out. It was then when I discovered I am now poor and needy. I am on the precipice of losing house and everything in it. I have quit tithing and God showed me the scripture you read at the end of this and I am now deeply under the Law of Liberty.<br />
Now I do not want convince people to stop tithing. I would not want a brother to stumble by my wisdom. Because just by having guilt is a sin and if you feel guilty for not tithing you should tithe. But to the question of whether or not the person was deciding to pay of debt or to tithe, tithe if you feel guilty, do not tithe and pay off your debts if you do not feel guilty. It is human guilt that is the sin and not the not tithing(which is technically your crops given to Jewish priests, our pastors are not Jewish priests). You should give to others out of love and not guilt. Here is the scripture God showed me when I made the decision to quit tithing:<br />
Luke 15:8-9 (I know it is not the context of these verses, but it gave me comfort when I decided to quit tithing and showed me that I should celebrate about it)<br />
8 "Or what woman, if she has ten silver coins and loses one coin, does not light a lamp and sweep the house and search carefully until she finds it? 9 "When she has found it, she calls together her friends and neighbors, saying, `Rejoice with me, for I have found the coin which I had lost!'</p>Janet commented on 'Tithe or Pay Off Debt -- Which One Should You Do First?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451bcbd69e200e55395d27088342008-06-29T18:09:29Z2008-06-29T18:09:30ZJanetIn Luke 6:38....where is says, 'Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together...<p>In Luke 6:38....where is says, 'Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you'(NIV version). No where within this verse does it mention about paying or giving 'tithes' it is talking about just giving in general. Pastors should be paid from a church budget as they do need to live but not from so called 'thithes'...again, show me where it says in the Bible of any version that people should tithe with monies. You can look throughout all eternity, but you won't find it...lol!</p>Carson Williams commented on 'Tithe or Pay Off Debt -- Which One Should You Do First?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451bcbd69e200e5535e6aea88332008-06-18T23:38:49Z2008-08-29T06:41:41ZCarson WilliamsYou do not see the light if you are not of the light . We were not put on this...<p>You do not see the light if you are not of the light . We were not put on this earth to get in debt in the first place but to be fishers of men by winning souls for the Lord . If you don't see the light it simply means your still drinking milk and are not ready for meat which is the true Body of Christ . And once both are in you and you see the true Light of God you will not make excuses but rather rejoice that you may bring your tithes into the storehouse . It's very simple : If there are no tithes who will pay the Pastor while he brings in the " Word of God ," Food " to you ? The word of God feeds your spirit like a loaf of bread from Food lion feeds your physical body . You do pay for bread at the store to feed your physical body don't you ? If you take the bread from the store and not pay for it your stealing right ? If you take the word of God from his house and do not pay for it your stealing point blank and you will never be blessed . Pay your tithes and God has promised that the windows of heaven will pour out more blessings than you can handle . That being said I believe God knows your heart and will take an i.o.u as long as you do pay God as soon as you get it . God Bless !</p>Lance commented on 'Tithe or Pay Off Debt -- Which One Should You Do First?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451bcbd69e200e55318f31088332008-06-08T23:22:00Z2008-08-27T12:37:22ZLanceSo then... if I "prove God" (Malachi) by tithing for some 15-20 years (10% of all income including any giftings...<p>So then... if I "prove God" (Malachi) by tithing for some 15-20 years (10% of all income including any giftings from individuals, any government grants / benefits etc all before tax)...</p>
<p>...and even so, I still get into debt, several times over...</p>
<p>...does this mean God has failed?</p>
<p>And if God fails *once* (for me) even while he provides billions of other "worked for me... can't outgive God" testimonies for others...</p>
<p>...He has still failed, right?</p>
<p><br />
Personally, I would prefer to think that maybe some of you have misinterpreted the scriptures than to suggest God got is wrong somewhere or that somehow my individual case is too big for Him to handle. Suggesting that I might have "some other area" not in check is sidestepping the issue; it's the practice of tithing we're looking at here. No one has read what I have posted enough to explain how it is that in my circumstances, continued, long term tithing has resulted in debt nevertheless.</p>got_faith commented on 'Tithe or Pay Off Debt -- Which One Should You Do First?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451bcbd69e200e552c0e38e88342008-06-04T19:41:06Z2008-06-04T19:41:06Zgot_faithOk i didn't read everyones comments, but for those of you saying time is more valuable than money, i'd like...<p>Ok i didn't read everyones comments, but for those of you saying time is more valuable than money, i'd like you to offer the cashier at the grocery store time instead of money next time you go shopping. Offer them your time for a couple of hours and see how they take it. Next time you go to a birthday party or wedding or something, don't get them a gift.....tell them they get a couple of hours with you :) i'm sure they'll be thrilled. </p>
<p>WHO ARE WE KIDDING!!! </p>
<p>We all know that money is extremely valuable and that we NEED it. God knows this. That's why he asks it of us. How can you not trust God to provide? I mean He's only the Creator of the whole universe, the Maker of man. If He asks for 10% of the money that HE has so graciously blessed us with, give it to Him!! All he wants is for you to do your part so in turn he can flood you with blessings!!!<br />
</p>Nikki commented on 'Tithe or Pay Off Debt -- Which One Should You Do First?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451bcbd69e200e55282769788342008-05-22T16:11:11Z2008-08-29T17:13:38ZNikkiWow, comments have been pouring in for over 2 years. Wow. Anyway, here’s my two cents. I decided to start...<p>Wow, comments have been pouring in for over 2 years. Wow. Anyway, here’s my two cents. I decided to start off with a story J</p>
<p>There were once 2 farmers, farmer John and farmer Joe. Who decided to purchase land that would sustain all of their flock and family. Each purchased plenty of land and had large families (about 10 members in each). Farmer John decided that he would raise crop and sale in order to pay off his debt and have food for his family. Farmer Joe decided that he would go out and get a job, take that money and pay off his debt. Both plans sounded great for a while. Farmer John knew that in order to have food for his family and have crop to sell to pay off his debt, he needed to plant (seed) a certain amount back into the land, knowing that if he sowed it, he would reap a harvest in due time. So he and his family would go out and work in the land. Farmer Joe never did seed (which is unlike a farmer). He continued to work towards paying off his debt. All of the money he made went to paying on his debt. His family would go days without eating. He said within himself, if only I could just have enough left over to buy seed, then I would be able to plant it and have food for my family. Each time he got paid from his job, he had to pay on his debt, leaving little, if nothing for his family to eat. He was paying on his debt, but his family was lacking. Of course he was giving money to whom it was due because he had an obligation, but his family were going without. Farmer John would take in a harvest, he would take a percentage out in order to seed back into the land, with the rest he would divide it up into what his family would have for food and what he would sell in order to pay off his debt. Even though he would seed and had to wait for the harvest, he knew that if he didn’t plant any seed back into the ground, he wouldn’t have anything to sell nor eat. So he would diligently plant seed back into the ground, even when times were hard and the harvest took a while, he still planted a portion back. Farmer Joe then asked a favor of farmer John. If he would let him have a portion of the harvest and in return, his family (farmer Joe) would go over and work the land and till it. Farmer John agreed and when farmer Joe got that portion, he sowed into the land and still worked to pay off his debt. Now once it was time for there harvest, what do you think would have been the best thing for farmer Joe to do? <br />
A.) Take in the harvest eat and go on about their business (later ending up in the same state) or<br />
B.) Take a portion of that harvest and sow back into the ground for latter harvests. </p>
<p><br />
Which strategy sounds better? (Seeding, tithing) back in order to get a harvest for the future, or taking that money and paying for the now and not having an account for the future. </p>
<p>I personally know, in order to get out of debt, you have to do first things first. At least get that packed down. Then you can seek advice counsel, on how to budget, after the tithes of course, your money. </p>
<p>Someone also said previously that it seems like a fee-for service. NO, please don’t misunderstand. God says Himself to PROVE HIM. Therefore if He says that, then why don’t you prove Him on it?</p>
<p>I can speak for myself in saying that the tithes shall be given first and foremost. I have kept record for about over the past 8 years. I started tithing here and there. The tithe would be like $10 each pay period, then over time it increased as I begin to tithe faithfully, no matter what, it went to $50, then it increased to $90, then $100, then $500, then $900, then $1000 and now $1270 each month. Hum, now looking at my tithes increase is an indication of our income increasing. It took over 7 years to get there but we did. There were times when I had a bill due but I needed to pay my tithes. So which did I choose, I just made sure that the tithes were taken out and somehow, my bills got paid (whether someone blessed me with money or whether I worked something out with the bill company, they might have been late, but they got paid). They are about to increase again because of a raise. You see, you can’t out give God. It’s not our money but our obedience that He wants. I see that earlier someone said that it wasn’t money but other things that were given during that time. Remember, people would use different things for currency, it was more like a barter and trade. Back then, you could have probably bought a loaf of bread with a measure of corn and vice versa.</p>
<p> Throughout the bible God speaks to us about all of His many promises. Why is it that in Malachi when it comes down to the tithe, it is the only place mentioned where He said, prove Him? Because, He wanted us to see that when we willingly and obediently give the tithe, He will open up the windows of heaving and pour out blessings. I also see that someone stated that it was only for the Old Testament and only for the Levites. It is 2008 and I’m not a Levite and it works, it works for me. I may sound boisterous but I know that it will increase into the $10,000. Why, because I have put it into practice and know that it works. I can’t out give Him, so if I keep giving, He will and has to continue to give. Now I also can’t leave off having love, compassion, and mercy for my fellow brethren, giving to the poor, or any other things such as that. I can’t go out and lie, commit adultery, steal, cheat, etc, and expect to be blessed. Everything has to work together. I can’t just give and say God send me this or that, without getting up and working, no no. Everything should be done decently and in order. Remember the story, had Farmer John just planted and not have gone out and worked to till it and bring in the harvest, would they have had food? Remember in Deuteronomy, God tells us what happens when we obey and what happens when we disobey, it’s up to us to choose. The story (path and it’s consequences) has already been set out; it’s up to us to choose. </p>
<p>Remember, had the farmers not decided to seed a percentage back and work the land, they would have gone without. God is interested not only in our finances when it comes to tithing, but in our overall financial, spiritual, and physical state, (debt, not having enough, barely getting by, etc). I can keep going on and on but I will wait for a response from this comment. (to be continued) J</p>Shirley commented on 'Tithe or Pay Off Debt -- Which One Should You Do First?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451bcbd69e200e5521ab89088342008-04-29T16:51:06Z2008-08-29T12:17:16ZShirleyhttp://www.ytb.com/takefyvetravelsPressuring a person to tithe. paying debt first... A bible believer understands that its not about " pressuring " it...<p>Pressuring a person to tithe. paying debt first... A bible believer understands that its not about " pressuring " it is simply about obeying the word. I get that many of you think you can only do one of these at a time. Why are we not to owe anyone, I believe that would be more of a character issue, just like our bodies are the temple we are to treat it as such, we are not to judge others, or be loving in all we do , those are CHARACTER issues, we are to pay tithe is a command from God, its about being obedient. And God never said we would not struggle just because we pay tithe. The word does not say tithing takes away any struggle we could possibly have. Its simply about obedience and the key is doing it in the right spirit. Thats where the problem lies, if we do it like oh I have debt and I need to pay bills and I will not have any money if I pay but I am going to pay then how do you think God receives that.... How would you if someone gave you something begrudgingly, you would tell them to keep it, you don't even want it. I can not imagine Jesus on that cross saying look at them they are a bunch of ungrateful, whining, unbelieving, unkind etc people, I don't want to do this BUT.... he asked his father was there any other way.... yet, not MY will but THY will.... and because of his LOVE for us he willingly went on that cross, he could have called a thousand Angels but he did not. let us be mindful also, that Job was not going through what he went through because of something he did or did not do. There are times where people will suffer for the good and testimony of others. Gods ultimate goal is to save us, ALL of us, wether you agree or not, believe or not, he wants to save us ALL, and if that means we suffer for him now to live with him forever then that is what he will ALLOW. Job suffered yet came out victoriously in the end, and he was even more strenghtened in his resolve to serve God. If you are tithing and still going through things, look at the decisions you are making wholistically. We all have major growing to do, yes you may be tithing but you also may be the biggest gossiper this side of Mississippi, you may be in an adulturous relationship, a thief, a lier, very cold and mean person, judgemental, two-faced, ungrateful, selfish and the list goes on. God does reward, and he rewards us more then we could possibly imagine, he cannot do it the way we would like him to if we are not ready for it. And rewards does not always mean financial. If you are struggling it is because you have not learned the lesson God is trying to teach you. <br />
Please just obey, yes, those who do not pay thithe still are receiving blessings, we look at them like why are they still prospering, but thats just a testament of just how good and merciful God is. Someone said as soon as he let go of christianity he began to prosper, I know its not because of his no longer believing, he will see in the end every knee will bow and tongue confess, and his spirit evidently was not right for God to bless, we can ALL be ready for what the world has to offer which is nothing, material is nothimng to what God is trying to instill in us.... Anyway.. <br />
Be Blessed in obedience.</p>Lance commented on 'Tithe or Pay Off Debt -- Which One Should You Do First?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451bcbd69e200e551f6a56d88332008-04-23T21:53:17Z2008-08-28T06:46:02ZLanceFrom Job to Jude: Job was a blameless and upright man (Job 1:1,8). Was he tithing? Probably a higher amount...<p>From Job to Jude:</p>
<p>Job was a blameless and upright man (Job 1:1,8). Was he tithing? Probably a higher amount than required. Certainly he was partaking in the sacrifices of the day without holding back; even extra on behalf of his loved ones (Job 1: 5) Despite this, God allowed Satan to wipe out Jobs fortune. First was everything he owned, including the lives of those loved ones he had sacrificed for (chapter 1) and then what was left of Jobs health just short of taking his life. (chapter 2)<br />
How would you counsel Job? Would you tell him that his predicament doesn't add up to what you and your ten other friends have experienced? Was Job only really pretending to give what he did? Would you declare that Job must be sinning in some other area for such calamity to befall him; that there must be other areas of his life he can't be addressing? These things you are saying of me and they are the same things Jobs associates said of him, and yet God reprimanded them for it.</p>
<p>You see, God isn't Santa Claws. He does look after us, and this goes well beyond the financial realm, yet it is not outside of His ability to give or to take from us... whether or not we happen to be tithing. It is His discretion as God to do so.</p>
<p>I referred to Jude because you accused me of ignoring "the rest of the Bible's advice". That's quite an accusation right there. I had been raising an opposition to the view that tithing equates to never again seeing debt, and you responded by avoiding the issue and pointing a finger against my character. My reference to Jude was to remind you that such judgements are dangerous ground (Jude v9) and that I wanted you to address topic, not the person.</p>
<p>So, you see, it was in light of your accusations against me that I cited "from Job to Jude".</p>
<p>As far as advice on your website goes, I'm already doing pretty much every one of those ideas listed on your "The 10 Most-Hated Money Saving Tips" page, simply as common sense / necessity more than anything else (exceptions for 9 because trips out from New Zealand are something I can't afford and 6 because I can't affort a house either). This is a side point against the focus on this page however, which is about what people believe comes of tithing.</p>
<p>I am a strong believer in tithing, although my posts here have been to point out that those people who are using tithing as means of personal gain (I'm going to tithe because then that will make God stop me going into debt, the Bible says so) are mistaken...</p>
<p>Let me put it another way (true story): The other month I found five dollars on the sidewalk. Given my low financial stature, I was grateful for this. Despite my wanting to get to a store in order to have 50c change ready for the offering, circumstances prevented this and come the morning service I was faced with the offering going around, that same five dollar note still in my pocket. Sometimes in the past I have tended to pray "okay I'll speed up in future, I promise" and then get the change asap after the service, ready to put aside for the next opportunity. On this occasion, I felt more convicted about it being "first fruits" of my income and certain scriptures about holding back on giving. Whatever my reasoning, I decided to put the full amount that morning into the offering in order to have it given in good time. Now then: How tempting to be thinking, "look at me giving the whole of what I received this week. God better be making my bank fortunes rise for this one." You think God would be obliged to insure that I should then win Lotto (even though of course, I never buy Lotto tickets)? Of course not... and definitely not if that's what He sees in my heart. I'm giving that five dollars for whatever cause... period. The money I picked up that day was never a cent of personal financial use to me. As far as personal gain goes, I could almost say that in hindsight, there was no reason for me to even bother picking it up from the sidewalk. And it was not long after this that my bank balance for the first time ever, hit rock bottom.</p>
<p>But back to the topic though...</p>
<p>It the original blog for this page, you said...<br />
"I take these verses to mean that the 10% tithe goes to God first, before anything else -- debt payments included. That's what we're called to and that's what I'd recommend for you. <br />
Then, if you do this, you can expect God to work financially in your life. He's promised that if you're faithful, He'll fill your barns and vats to overflowing. He's even said that you should test Him by tithing and see if He won't open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it!"</p>
<p>I have said that I've been doing this and I'm concluding that based on my own experiences, you are mistaken. I don't think you are mistaken for the long term, but in terms of short term, you certainly would be. God can still allow you to go bankrupt whenever and whyever He chooses, and He can do it even as you are tithing.</p>
<p>...I take it you are now revising your view to...<br />
"Then, if you do this PLUS A BUNCH OF OTHER UNDISCLOSED THINGS, you can expect God to work financially in your life."</p>
<p>Yes? or No? Because that's what you're now saying to me. If so, then it's quite a change to how many would read your original post.</p>FMF commented on 'Tithe or Pay Off Debt -- Which One Should You Do First?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451bcbd69e200e551f5a5af88332008-04-23T11:02:57Z2008-08-29T21:18:46ZFMFhttp://www.freemoneyfinance.comLance -- This is going nowhere. Obviously you have a point of view that you're holding on to and are...<p>Lance --</p>
<p>This is going nowhere. Obviously you have a point of view that you're holding on to and are not really open to consider the alternatives. Here's my final word to you:</p>
<p>1. I have no idea what you mean by "have you learned nothing from Job to Jude".</p>
<p>2. If you applied everything else the Bible says about mananaging your money (developing your career, spending less than you earn, not getting into debt, etc.), it's mathmatically impossible not to have plenty left over to both tithe and pay off any extra debt you have. Problem solved.</p>Lance commented on 'Tithe or Pay Off Debt -- Which One Should You Do First?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451bcbd69e200e551f4e53088332008-04-23T01:45:50Z2008-08-30T03:13:03ZLanceBut I'm not ignoring the rest of the Bible's advice. In saying so, have you learned nothing from Job to...<p>But I'm not ignoring the rest of the Bible's advice. In saying so, have you learned nothing from Job to Jude?</p>
<p>I have fully "applied" everything you have written above. Your articles logic is misplaced. It would not matter if you had a thousand followers claiming things turned out well for them. As long as one person finds it does not work, then your formulaic rule cannot be the key you say it is.</p>
<p>Would you have me list the ways I am actually following what your other articles have said? I think you would be surprised if you knew. I can even add to your list of ways to save. Alas, perhaps you only want to sidestep the issue?</p>
<p>Your question (and I quote) was: "So, what do you think? Did I give the right counsel?" In answer to your question, here is what I think...<br />
>> I think you were right to say they should tithe.<br />
>> I think you were wrong to suggest this would result in them becoming financial benefactors; implying as absolute that they would nevermore be in debt.</p>
<p>My experience, which you are now sidestepping, proves that.</p>FMF commented on 'Tithe or Pay Off Debt -- Which One Should You Do First?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451bcbd69e200e5520b53c988342008-04-22T23:36:29Z2008-04-22T23:36:29ZFMFhttp://www.freemoneyfinance.comLance -- What worked for me and for others I've taught is that they've applied everything the Bible has to...<p>Lance --</p>
<p>What worked for me and for others I've taught is that they've applied everything the Bible has to say about managing your money -- how you should spend, how you should save, how you should earn, how you should give, etc. (if you want to know more details, read my past Sunday posts.) Certainly, if you only tithe and ignore the rest of the Bible's advice you're going to go backwards.</p>Lance commented on 'Tithe or Pay Off Debt -- Which One Should You Do First?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451bcbd69e200e5520b43e088342008-04-22T23:04:01Z2008-08-29T21:22:18ZLanceWhat can I say? Someone's wrong. Of the 5 possible reasons I posted, the first three were meant to be...<p>What can I say? Someone's wrong.</p>
<p>Of the 5 possible reasons I posted, the first three were meant to be ridiculous... option 4 was the most likely, unless you could shed light from another angle as option 5 (hey, I can learn from surprises!).</p>
<p>...I was kind of disappointed then, that your answer leaned towards option 1 (that I don't exist).</p>
<p>I did get some money yesterday. Mum insisted on offering me $300. Here's what my bank balance looked like yesterday before accepting that extra $300 from Mum:</p>
<p><a href="http://img72.imageshack.us/my.php?image=redscreenshotlc0.jpg" rel="nofollow">http://img72.imageshack.us/my.php?image=redscreenshotlc0.jpg</a></p>
<p>I've also scored some very short term jobs. The reason why my finances are low is because I've been a student for the past year (just finished the study). It's hopefully a lull that will rise now that I can again work. Nevertheless, it does IMO refute some of the views stated that somehow tithers will never literally hit the below zero mark. I have twice now. I've been tithing for some twenty years. I've usually struggled financially.</p>
<p>Maybe it's time you updated that "my personal experience from working with people in debt for over a decade" testimony of yours?</p>
<p>"It worked for me" is an incredibly short sighted testimony when you now know there are others out there like myself who can testify otherwise.</p>
<p>BTW: I'm going to put $30 into the tithe.... I haven't stopped tithing.</p>FMF commented on 'Tithe or Pay Off Debt -- Which One Should You Do First?'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451bcbd69e200e551f42e2a88332008-04-22T19:39:16Z2008-08-30T12:06:36ZFMFhttp://www.freemoneyfinance.comLance -- My personal experience from working with people in debt for over a decade is exactly the opposite of...<p>Lance --</p>
<p>My personal experience from working with people in debt for over a decade is exactly the opposite of what you're saying.</p>