Dave Ramsey versus Family Christian Stores

Here's an interesting piece that deals with Christianity and two different views on credit.

In the September 18 issue of Christian Retailing magazine (sorry, I couldn't find a link for it), there's a story on page 12 of an interesting promotion being run by Family Christian Stores, the nation's largest Christian retail chain . It seems that when customers sign up for Family's MasterCard credit card they get to choose one of three books to receive for free. One of the books happens to be Dave Ramsey's The Money Answer Book. For those of you who don't know, Ramsey is a staunch advocate of having NO credit cards at all (he recommends only using debit cards). He cuts them up at his seminars, advises people on the radio to do the same, and even won't accept credit cards on his website.

Needless to say, Ramsey wasn't too pleased when he heard about the promotion. Here are some quotes from the Christian Retailing article that summarize his feelings:

Ramsey told his audience that he was uninvolved and unaware of the promotion.

"I don't think it's funny, and I don't think it's cute. And it makes me look like a hypocrite, like I had something to do with (it)."

Ramsey, who said the idea of a "Christian" credit card was an "oxymoron," added that he doesn't accept credit cards at his own website.

Wow. Lots to comment on here. Here are my thoughts on the situation:

• I don't think the Bible prohibits credit cards, but it does clearly warn about the dangers of debt. Ramsey thinks that people can't control themselves with credit cards (which many studies and financial statistics would back up) and thus says people shouldn't own them at all. My personal perspective is that if they are handled correctly, then they are fine for Christians (or anyone for that matter). For instance, I've had credit cards for a couple decades now, use them to buy only what's in my budget, and have always paid them off every month (and in that time, I've made a decent amount of money off them.)

• Family Christian Stores is a business, not a church. Family is a for-profit business, so people shouldn't be surprised when they act like it (and do things like offer credit cards.) Yes, there's a ministry aspect to what they do, but the company has to earn money or else they won't have any ministry -- they'll be out of business.

• I like much of Dave Ramsey's advice (most of it actually) and I think he has a good heart. But his delivery kind of puts me off a bit. He's too loud and obnoxious for me much of the time. I'm convinced that this is his public "performing personality" that he adopts when on TV, radio, etc., and I would guess that he's not like that in private (in fact, he seemed rather normal on a 60 Minutes interview he did recently.) But, that personality is certainly working for him -- he's as popular as ever.

So, what do you think?

Comments

[Terry]

I feel like Dave takes a firm and unwavering stance about debt in order to get his point across about how counterproductive it is to be in debt. And the 'no credit card' rule falls right in line. In addition, it falls in line with the interpretation of his faith. Sure, there are many people who can and do pay off a credit card balance every month, but for every one of them (I am one), there are hundreds who will pay minimum balances and wind up paying $75 for a $40 item. Overall, I like that he does not waver for the sake of educating those who cannot control their spending unless they cannot spend.

[Getting To Enough]

I think it's admirable that Dave Ramsey is at least being consistent. If he thinks credit cards are bad, then he shouldn't take them and he shouldn't be forced to participate in a promotion for them.

There's also the reminder in the Bible to not cause our brother to stumble, so if many people are susceptible to "stumbling" into credit card debt, then Dave Ramsey is doing a service by discouraging their use, even if they are not inherently "bad." Even if many (MAYBE most?) people can use credit cards without falling into unintended debt, there are definitely many people who do otherwise.

[Nigel Swaby]

I think Dave Ramsey is coming from a good place, but sometimes dispenses inaccurate advice about finances. I understand his credit card stance, but this world makes it very hard to operate without one. I guess it's a preview of the Tribulation to come.

[Steve]

If a credit card is used wisely, I don't see an issue in using it. there are many benefits in using a credit card, as well as there are many benefits in businesses accepting it.

The real issue is, what is the persons ability to save like? Spending on credit, without strong savings is where problems can be created.

[NCN]

Dave's always been totally anti-credit card, and the bookstore should have known this. He has the right, even the responsibility, to stand up for his beliefs.

Dave Rocks!

NCN

[MF]

I am an employee at Family Christian, and I remember our manager commenting about the irony of having the Dave Ramsey book as one of the items we give for free for applying for an FCS mastercard. While I don't take as hard of a stance against credit cards as Mr. Ramsey (I believe that they can be useful when used responsibly) I abhor the fact that FCS offers a credit card and in fact heavily pressures employees to offer the card (many times to people who I can tell really shouldn't have one) whether or not they feel comfortable morally with it.

[Jeff]

Looks like they retracted it... The offer is now for gift certificates instead of books. Dave 1, FCS 0.

[Brandon]

The core of the issue isn't whether or not credit cards are inherently sinful or not. Rather it is that Dave obviously doesn't believe the use of credit cards is justifiable, and his book attests to that at multiple times.

Regardless of whether that belief is correct or not, he is entitled to it. And, he is entitled to have some control over what kind of promotion is done around his materials.

I seriously doubt this was an intentional decision on the part of Family Christian (although I'm sure it was great for publicity), but rather a painfully obvious example of a merchant not understanding the product that they are selling. It's pretty shameful.

The result is not too much different than if an abortion clinic gave away a free copy of "The Silent Scream" with every abortion performed. OK, maybe this is an extreme comparison...

On the lighter side of the issue. I wonder if maybe Mr. Ramsey's book was chosen based on the suggestion of an employee who *did* know what the book said, and secretly disagreed with the policy of Family Christian to push a credit card. Perhaps this was a form of silent protest. Hmm....

[Amy]

My dad, who has been a manager for Family Christian Stores for 20 years was fired this last Saturday because he has repeatedly been told to fire his employees if they were not making their credit card application numbers. He was fired because of that and because he did not himself feel it was right to push the credit card because of the sin it can lead other people into by temptation. I have to wonder where the Christian community feels the future of our country is headed if so many have lost the sight and moved their eye from the prize. My dad did not want to be a part of making someone else fall into a world of sin and for that, he was punished by a "christian" company. I have been a family member of someone who has been employed with this company since the early '80s (first my mom and then my dad) and I have seen so many things happen that convince me that they have truly lost their image of what a Christian should be. They are now like corporate America - The Bottom Line is now the Prize instead of God!

[Steve Cattan]

Regarding an earlier post, Dave Ramsey's website DOES accept credit cards. You can buy any product he offers with a Visa or Mastercard. He has a disclaimer on his website stating that his policy is debit cards only but that they cannot tell the difference electronically between a credit and debit card. He considers this an issue of integrity and expects people to not use the credit card. I have been a Dave Ramsey fan for ten years and have followed his program and am debt free. But this is totally hypocritical. When I started following his program 10 years ago, he did not take any cards (debit or credit). His company drafted the money directly from your checking account. However, as his business has grown and his fame has increased, he decided that in order to continue to grow and keep up with the demands for his products, he would have to accept electronic payments in the form of a card, debit or credit. To his account, he clearly states that he expects people to be honest. However, the vast majority of people buying his products are the very ones who cannot control their credit card spending...hence the need for his products. You wouldn't give an alcoholic a beer, why give someone who cannot control their spending the opportunity to go further into debt? Could it be that Dave has compromised his integrity just a little himself????

[Beth]

I have been an employee of FCS for 13 years and like Amy above I would agree that they have completely lost their focus on what a Christ-centered retail store should be. I am not only not a bit surprised at the offer they had but disgusted as well along with a myriad of other stunts they have pulled in recent years. I feel for Amy and her family. I just pray that Dave Ramsey does not fall into the same trap that FCS has about getting too big for their small "Christian business britches". Although Dave does not condone credit card purchases I wonder how many times I have rung up a book of his in a purchase and put it on plastic at my store.

[Mary]

If Ramsey is "really" against
the credit card industry then why isn't he refusing to accept debit cards? Visa and MC are charging him a merchants fee to accept these cards and any business that pays that merchants fee is passing the cost onto the consumer!

[John]

I am a Manager w. FCS. They have completely stopped the BOA Credit Card promo at the store level. You can still get one, but you have to go to their website. Their focus is now completely on the James Fund, WV, and expanding that ministry. Employees also have the option of going on mission trips through JF - not like corporate America.

[Claude]

After listening to Dave for a few months I can see why he doesn't like credit cards. I believe he doesn't understand credit at all. And the advice he gives to his listeners makes that obvious. His debt solutions are amazing. But his credit advice is mediocre at best. Having poor credit or no credit at all can make your life almost debilitating. Some employers require credit just to get a job. And have you ever tried renting a car with a debit card, just doesn't work. My advice is to get and keep a few credit cards. Use them responsibly. If you cant manage them, cut them up but keep them open. Or put them in your sock drawer and forget about them. So all in all I praise his debt relief efforts but condem his credit advice. Listening to Dave's advice on credit can and probably will hurt you more in the long run.

[Mal]

Claude, then I guess you can keep listening to Dave's advice on debt since you aren't also listening to the credit advice.

[CJ]

To all the folks that have suggested that life is hard or impossible without credit, well, I beg to disagree. I'm 31 years old and have never had a credit card. I'm also a pilot who does a fair amount of travelling and to be truthful have had a few issues since I haven't had a major credit card, but all of those have been resolved by being a little more persistent or simply giving my business to someone else. Yes, I have to plan my spending a little more carefully and I have to have the money in the bank for whatever I decide to purchase but you know what? that's life..... I've got some nice stuff and a decent car and guess what, it's all mine! Regardless of whether or not you agree with Dave Ramsey or his delivery or what not you can't really argue the fact that his financial advice comes straight from Proverbs. If you choose to ignore that, well, yeah, have fun with that.