My Issue with How Tax Money is Spent

Here's a comment left on my post titled The Other America that struck a note with me. Recall that the post was about a CBS video series on people who are barely making it (if making it at all) due to the high food prices and "lack" of government assistance. One reader said the following:

I watched the segment. I saw meat, meat, meat, fruit loops, frozen waffles. A local newspaper article here said a family of 4 gets $550 in SUPPLEMENTAL (i.e. add your own money to it) food stamps. I could feed my family of 4 on that and not need to supplement! It also said people on food stamps overbuy on convenience and prepackaged foods. How about oatmeal, dried beans, rice, peanut butter, using coupons??? I didn't see one coupon being handed over. Also everyone was well dressed and overweight. It's easier to complain about food stamps not being enough than to be frugal and put more effort into the grocery shopping.

This point illustrates several of my beefs with how our tax money is spent. Specifically, I take issue with the size of the "assistance" (my family too could easily feed ourselves for less than $550 per month), the lack of "helping yourself" effort that many of these people seem to show (for example, not really "shopping" for the best deals like the rest of us do) and the fact that many of these people are better dressed/have luxuries that people who aren't on assistance can't afford. It just seems so wasteful on so many fronts.

As I've said before, I'm all for helping the poor (that's why I give to charitable causes) and would even be willing to pay MORE in taxes if I thought the government wasn't wasting or mis-allocating a good portion of it. But I find it hard to support a system that's so out of whack that examples like the one above seem more like the rule than the exception. It frustrates me to no end.

Am I reading this the wrong way? Maybe there's a point of view I haven't considered? Thoughts?

Comments

[KMC]

Please consider, though, that often neighborhoods with the highest use of public assistance for food are the same ones un- or under-served by grocery stores. People in many neighborhoods only have access to small corner grocery stores or convenience markets that charge much higher prices and don't stock 'cheap' food. They specialize in packaged, convenience products. Their customers are captive because many don't own cars to drive to distant 'major' grocery stores.

[Joel]

I think ignorance / lack of education is most of the problem. I'd be willing to bet that if someone took away all of your money and gave it to a destitute, uneducated person, that person (in a few years) would wind up in the same situation they were originally in, while you would have generated wealth. It's all about education.

[David Wynn]

I agree with KMC above, and I'm not so sure that 550 per month is typical for food stamps. The food stamp challenge that a number of congressmen/women took up a while ago put their limit at 3 dollars per day, which translates to 360 a month for a family of four. Especially on convenience foods, I'm thinking that doesn't go very far.

[garyatk]

I think that you are dead on track. However, if we continue to vote the same people, and limit ourselves to the same two political parties we will continue to get the government that we have always gotten. This November, if you are truely unhappy with our government, vote for real change. The kind of change that can only be brought by a new political party.

[Rick]

The US government shouldn't be helping poor people at all. Cut off the welfare so these people will be motivated to better themselves. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but I've seen similar abuses of programs for the poor like this before (like collecting gifts for poor kids only to have families drive up in their flashy cars to pick up their toys). The abuses will be there as long as the programs exist, so why not eliminate the programs?

In my opinion, charity should come from family first, then the local church, and then the community. The family mentioned above could easily get $360 worth of free food monthly at my church and there is no tax payer money involved.

[justin]

I spent some time recently working a part time job as a cashier at Walmart to raise a little extra cash. I live in a small town surrounded by a relatively rural area. I'd guess that 30-40% of my grocery customers used some form of government assistance. $550 is about what I would see that people had on their cards if they had a couple of kids. For the most part, I noticed that a lot of junk/convenience food was being bought with these cards. Frozen dinners, cookies/candy, chips and the like were the most common foods I saw.

[FMF]

David --

We don't spend much more than $360 per month for a family of four -- and could cut easily to hit this if we had to. We'd probably have to cut some discretionary purchases and name brands, but it wouldn't be hard.

Also remember that this would cover the ENTIRE bill. Shouldn't people be able to contribute SOMETHING to their own food purchases?

[Rebecca]

It's a tricky business, but welfare should - I believe - be helping people survive while encouraging them to move beyond the need of assistance.
There is a problem as you point out, where people who don't qualify for welfare assistance end up being worse off than those who do. I say problem because this then encourages recipients to remain dependant, and in fact tells others that it would be worth their while to become dependant.

I think KMC also raises a good point, that knowledge plays a role here. I think in most cases cooking from scratch can save money in the long run. The first you have to buy a bunch of ingredients it will cost more, but then one plant of basil or garlic bushel or tin of spices will last numerous meals.

[sahm]

I agree with Rick. I have seen our local co-op at work with these unfortunate families, and they don't just give a handout. These families have to proof that they are in need and only get a limited amount of assistance. They have to show what they are doing to get back on their feet.

I have to disagree with KMC. I'm sure there are some that are in under served areas, but I've seen people using their food stamps too many times in areas that have fierce grocery competition (which means there are more sales, double/triple coupons, etc). C'mon, at least buy what is on sale if you are going to use my money!

[Sed]

A little off topic but... How do you keep your grocery bill ~360$/month for four people? Our family consists of two adults and a 10 month old and we're spending around 5-550$/month excluding diapers/formula/wipes. I cook a lot from scratch but we do probably have 1-2 days a week where we eat something prepackaged for dinner but that is usually a 5-7$ meal (frozen pizza, ravioli, etc). My wife works 3 days a week and evening baby duty makes it hard to prep food at the same time before she comes home. Is there a website which tracks the relative costs of food based on where you live? I am wondering if we are in a higher cost area or if we just have expensive taste in food.

[Sed]

Back on topic:

Can't they limit the food stamp usage to only pay for actual food like vegetables, pasta, meats, etc (or a max percentage of junk/convenience)? Force those getting assistance to use their OWN money to pay for the convenience/junk food and see how their grocery cart contents change.

[Andy]

Great post! This topic always makes for heated debates. I agree that the welfare system is messed up. Too many people are encouraged to remain dependent. I do not mind helping people who are truly in need, but it pisses me off that so much of our tax dollars are going toward helping people who refuse to help themselves.

[FMF]

Sed --

1. My wife's a GREAT shopper. Uses sales, coupons, etc.

2. We follow many of the money saving suggestions I list on this blog.

3. We live in West Michigan -- a relatively low-cost place to buy food.

[Katy McKenna]

Thirty years ago, the only Aldi's in KC (that I knew of) was in a crime-ridden part of town not far from our house. We could have gotten food stamps, based on our income, but we refused. I had two little kids at the time, but I would wait till my husband got home (with our one car) to make the Aldi's run alone. I dressed to fit in with the Aldi's crowd. Back then, that meant looking poor, not much of a challenge, since we WERE poor. Ha.

They only took cash or foodstamps. Period. I usually had $100 on me, to buy a month's groceries. I shopped there for years and never saw another person with cash. I was scared to death of being robbed in the parking lot before I ever made it into the store. But I guess no thieves expect an Aldi's shopper to have CASH.

And yes, even back then, the foodstampers at Aldi's were buying stuff I couldn't afford. All the convenience foods I'd never even imagined buying, like off-brand hamburger helper. I'd come home furious every time and tell my husband what they were eating that we couldn't.

Ah, memories. Thanks, FMF. You know how to bring out the nostalgia.....

[Katy McKenna]

Thirty years ago, the only Aldi's in KC (that I knew of) was in a crime-ridden part of town not far from our house. We could have gotten food stamps, based on our income, but we refused. I had two little kids at the time, but I would wait till my husband got home (with our one car) to make the Aldi's run alone. I dressed to fit in with the Aldi's crowd. Back then, that meant looking poor, not much of a challenge, since we WERE poor. Ha.

They only took cash or foodstamps. Period. I usually had $100 on me, to buy a month's groceries. I shopped there for years and never saw another person with cash. I was scared to death of being robbed in the parking lot before I ever made it into the store. But I guess no thieves expect an Aldi's shopper to have CASH.

And yes, even back then, the foodstampers at Aldi's were buying stuff I couldn't afford. All the convenience foods I'd never even imagined buying, like off-brand hamburger helper. I'd come home furious every time and tell my husband what they were eating that we couldn't.

Ah, memories. Thanks, FMF. You know how to bring out the nostalgia.....

[Christopher]

To Sed:

Consumers can buy just about anything with foodstamps provided you can eat it. That means that little debbie qualifies just as well as a bowl of oatmeal. In my experience that food stamp users are rarely concerned about health, but they are concerned about 1.) have something to eat, and 2.) keeping their (overweight) kids happy. In the end, little debbie wins.

As a grocery clerk, I've been shocked at some people who pay with foodstamps. Sometimes those people really do need them. Other times, the people will buy several hundred dollars in premium beef on foodstamps (No joke, I witnessed this happen).

I work my indicator like this: if the person is buying beer, cigarettes, or any form of the traditional "vices" in addition to their food stamp purchases, they probably don't need food stamps.

-CD

NOTE: you cannot buy booze or cigarettes with foodstamps

[Kevin]

We spend about $75-100 a week for a family of 3, but we buy a lot of organic produce and try to limit our convenience/pre-packaged foods because they are horrible nutrition-wise. We usually eat out 2-3 times per weekend, so altogether we probably spend $125-150 on food per week or $500-600 per month.

It is unbelievable to me that "poor" people are given more than that in food stamps per month. I'm all for helping folks out that need a hand, but that is going too far. I strongly agree with the comment above that would restrict food stamps to fresh food & no prepackaged crap. Milk, eggs, bread, beans, meat, veggies, etc.

[Spoodles]

Good grief! Our food budget is $330 per month for a family of four (and a half). We're what a lot of the "poor" consider to be rich! I'll grant you, it wouldn't hurt us any if we spent a lot more, but we don't have to, so we don't. And we're healthy. I haven't eaten a frozen waffle since I was a teenager, except for my homemade ones I freeze myself. The food stamp system definitely needs an overhaul. One thing I would do, if I were queen for a day, would be to slash the food stamp allotment by 20% (I'm feeling generous, here) and require food stamp recipients to take a short course on frugal shopping. Coupons (I never use them, but it works for some), healthy eating, scratch cooking, menu planning strategies, etc. Taxpayer money would be better spent training and paying social workers to teach these things to people than paying for such unhealthy and wasteful lifestyles.

[justin]

Christopher,

You also can't buy energy drinks with foodstamps. I remember one young couple getting very irate when they had to put back the 16 Starbucks energy drinks when the register wouldn't apply it to their food stamps. Of course, they just turned around and replaced them with Starbucks Frappuchino 4-packs, which went right through.

I also saw a lot of people who would buy $250 worth of food and another $200 worth of stuff from Walmart. Not necessities, but stuff like DVDs, CDs and the like.

[Todd]

FMF - "We don't spend much more than $360 per month for a family of four... "

Now that is impressive! You must make/cook every meal at home.

This is an example and many of the comments highlight why I struggle with giving in general. My I am not saying that there aren't needy people but many times it appears that people aren't willing to help themselves. Also the people abusing the system ruin it for all.

My opinion: Instead of giving money, consider giving your time first. Help someone figure out how they can make their situation better long term. What you will likely find out is that person isn't willing to do what it takes to get there and therefore refuses your help.

[a]

I can't stand the way "poor" people use their government received money. If I see someone whip out food stamps I take a look at what they are buying. Sodas, hostess cupcakes, chocolate coated sugar bombs and other assorted garbage abounds. Furthermore, there is a 50% chance that someone in their family is going to be texting people on their flashy new iPhone while they are being rung up. And don't get me started on the amount of gold these people are usually wearing.

My government policy dreams are:

1) What you can buy with food stamps should be limited to the basics like flour, milk, bread, rice, beans, vegetables, meats etc. You can make quite a bit of good and nutritious food with store brand ingredients. You could also include prepared food that isn't abject crap such as pizza. Finally, I would fully support free cookbooks and home economics lessons for anyone who wants them. Teach a man to fish feed him for life.

2) If you own an iPhone you should be immediately disqualified from any form of government aid. You are either well above the poverty line and lying about needing food stamps. Or you completely lack even the most basic common financial sense that will allow you to spend government aid money in any way that will actually benefit your family.

"Taxpayer money would be better spent training and paying social workers to teach these things to people than paying for such unhealthy and wasteful lifestyles."

Spoodles - I wish I could agree with you but, as with most things financial, I don't think the problem is ignorance but discipline. Once a person cares about eating healthy and is disciplined enough to stick to a plan, they can be educated on intricacies like which are the best kinds of grains to eat (I need to learn more about this). Once a person cares about spending less on food and is disciplined enough to stick to a plan, they can be educated on Costco prices compared to Giant. But no one is buying Little Debbies without coupons because they haven't been educated on food, its prices and effects, they just don't care or don't have the discipline. Reducing the amount of food stamps given and using that money to help refine the system so the types of food that can be bought with stamps is better controlled (and the right people are getting the stamps in the first place) seems to be the way to improve what is out there.

[Kate]

I'm not sure I agree with the poster at 11:29 that the problem is discipline (vs. ignorance). I'm sure that there are many cases where the problem is, indeed, discipline. But in other cases, I think education would help. If you grew up in a home where your parents did not cook, or only prepared convenience food, you probably didn't learn to cook frugal meals from scratch.

Frugality is learned over time. I like to say that while I had a relatively frugal wedding 15 years ago, I could do even better now than I did then. I didn't know as much, and now I can see more possibilities for saving money that I simply didn't even realize were there.

I think we need to be careful not to stereotype (this is true for the rich and the poor). There are people who waste foodstamps (paid for by taxpayers) through lack of discipline or ignorance. And there are people who use resources wisely. Also, while I don't use food stamps, I'm sure my grocery cart would come up short in people's eyes some days -- but often that's because I have almost all the staples, meat and veggies I need at home already, so I can afford to go to the store for just a few necessities and, yes, some treats.

The only other concern I have is the "well-dressed poor person" label. We don't know where a person got there clothes. I've gotten very nice hand-me-downs from others, and I also have purchased nice clothing at resale shops. Well-dressed does not mean the person is wasting their money on clothes.

[Jason]

My favorite is the person rolling up to the Section-8 office (subsidized housing) in their Escalade to complain about the rates being increased.

As for the groceries, my family of 4 probably spends between $400 and $600 per month on groceries. That includes just about everything edible that comes into the house. My wife cooks most nights, but we also buy some frozen and packaged foods. We might go out to eat twice a month. I think $550 a month in food stamps is ridiculous! It's not supposed to pay for ALL of the groceries. It's only supposed to HELP pay for the groceries! It's so you don't die of starvation, not so you can pig out on Ho Ho's and Ding Dong's!!!

[Jim]

I certainly agree that $542 for 4 people is high. And I'd much prefer that they only let people buy food that is nutritious.

$542 is the maximum for a family of 4. To get food stamps at all you have to be under the poverty level. Most recipients get less than the maximum.

A primary reason that they don't limit what you can buy is due to opposition from the food and grocery industry. Food makers don't want their products to be potentially excluded and grocery stores don't want the extra hassle involved. I'm sure the junk food makers would heavily lobby against such a change. Unfortunately our politicians listen to industry lobbyists too much.

Jim

[Jim]

Basically I think the poor eating habits of food stamp users is just a reflection of our society in general more than anything. Americans don't have healthy diets.

The USDA has a big fat study about the nutrition / eating habits of food stamp recipients versus the population in general.
http://www.ers.usda.gov/publications/efan04014-1/efan04014-1fm.pdf

One measure they have there is the Healthy Eating Index (HEI) and they found that the index is 60.2 for food stammp receipients and 64 for the population in general.

SO while its true that food stamp users have less healthy eating habits they are not significantly less than the population in general.

"The HEI is a composite score constructed from 10
individual scores: five food-based scores that assess intake of grains, vegetables, fruits, dairy, and
meat, four nutrient-based scores, and a variety score."

Jim

[AdamCO]

While we may disagree with the welfare system and be put off by people who don't spend the money as we would, let's keep in mind that welfare and food stamps combined are less than 1/10th of one percent of the federal budget.

Its mere discussion is a red herring from the actual issues of our time and the way our govt is really spending money.

[AdamCO]

Oooh, I thought of an analogy. Voting for politicians because they "won't spend your tax money on lazy people" is like being captain of a ship with a breech in the hull and rather than fixing the breech you have your crew build an ornate, finely woven tent to cover the helm to keep it from getting wet.

[Jim]

TANF budget (welfare) was about $16.5B in 2007 and food stamps are about $26B. Total buget outlays are $2.7T. So Welfare & food stamps are less than 2% of the total. Its still not a large chunk over the whole pie but it is more than 0.1%.

By comparison we spent $237B or about 9% of our federal spending on interest payments on the national debt.

Jim

[Mar]

I have several thoughts/points to make on this:

1. Many of the poor who receive the food stamps cannot read (or read English) and are unable to follow a recipe or even make spaghetti sauce from scratch. This was brought home to me during a presentation by a rep from the local food bank several years ago. They have recipients who have no idea what to do with a jar of tomato paste and cans of tomato sauce. Box mixes for cakes and brownies have the number of eggs and tablespoons of oil illustrated because some people can't read the directions. Sad by true...
2. I've often thought that every welfare/food stamp recipient should be given a copy of Amy Dacyczyn's The Complete Tightwad Gazette and be required to read it. Of course, that would require they can read! Maybe on CD...
3. Every month, the recipients should receive one of the free government publications on nutrition, cooking, health, career, managing money, etc., such as this one: http://www.pueblo.gsa.gov/cic_text/food/rec-thrifty/thriftym.pdf I didn't even realize until recently that many of the government publications are available as free PDFs at the www.pueblo.gsa.gov website! Again, need to be able to read...
4. Years ago, one of the major news magazines (U.S. News, I think, but I could be wrong) had an article about how difficult it is to change the welfare mindset because many of those on welfare have never had a good example to follow. If you never saw your parents married, you probably won't bother with marriage either. If you haven't seen a parent get up and go to work and earn a paycheck every day, chances are you won't do so either. There is no expectation that you'll do so and very little incentive if you can get free money from the government. It's not like you're going to disappoint your parents by following their example.

Solutions? I don't know. Limiting food stamps to nutritious food is reasonable, but as another poster pointed out, will be difficult with the food lobbyists. I would love to volunteer to teach those who need basic cooking skills, but until my daughter goes to college in 5 years, I don't know where I would find the time.

Something to think about here... Thanks for bringing this up.

[FMF]

Adam/Jim --

I think we're saying the same things, but I'm not sure so here are a few thoughts from me:

1. Just because it's a small portion of the budget, doesn't mean that it's not a lot of money (it is).

2. Just because it's a small portion of the budget, doesn't mean that we should be ok with it being wasted and shouldn't try to save some of it. (not saying you're saying this, but it's unclear to me, so I'm just pointing it out.)

3. I AGREE that there's lots of other waste in the government. I just hit on this one in this post because of the reader quote.

[AdamCO]

FMF

I know, we shouldn't waste anywhere.

My comments are based primarily on snide remarks I hear from many, many, many, people. People who support a trillion dollar war and the national debt that it has cost. They say, "...blah blah giving my tax dollars to lazy people who don't work." And while that may be true, they are giving such a tiny portion of their tax dollars to such people. The vast majority of the taxes they love to complain about go to crazy outlays of money like the war and debt payments.

Another off-the-wall analogy:
There was a man sitting on the beach and he noticed about 200 yards out that a two people were floating in life jackets. The man swims out to them, takes their life jackets and says, "now either swim back to shore or drown, because your messing up my view of the horizon."

[PM]

I wouldn't be so quick to point fingers at people on food stamps (or their lack of parental role models?? oh dear.) I think I'd trace the amount of money spent on food not to laziness or "working the system" (I doubt that it's any easier to work the government system than it is to work, say, the credit card rewards system), but to:

1. Lack of real grocery stores in poorer neighborhoods, re: KMC's earlier comment.

2. Lack of time to cook -- if you're working two or three minimum-wage jobs (and many people are), you don't have time to cook nutritious meals from scratch, even though such meals might be "cheaper". (This is a problem also in that it leads to lots of McDonalds and similar unhealthy but cheap meals, which contribute to an obesity problem, which further stresses finances -- it's a downward spiral.)

3. Prices in cities tend to be higher than prices elsewhere -- and location matters for comparing your own expenses with others' expenses, much more than people are recognizing in these comments.

[LotharBot]

I've had a lot of poor friends, and a lot of friends on food stamps.

For the most part, they were TOTALLY clueless as to how to shop in a frugal way -- which is often whey they were on food stamps in the first place. Every one of them spent more per person than I do on food (at the same store, so don't give me that "poor selection" garbage.) I remember shopping with one friend and convincing him to put back $50 worth of meat, and buy a big $2 bag of potatoes instead. He was astonished when he made it to the end of the month and still had food to eat.

[StL Pastor]

Another comment-
cooking healthy food at home also implies things like a stove, a refrigerator,pots and pans, etc. as well as the basic knowledge of how to cook food we mentioned earlier. The initial outlay of capital that allows for better financial decisions over time is often unavailable to people from a lower socio-economic status, particularly if they have no practice in saving(a pattern we see in all sorts of decisions like credit card debt, renting vs. owning, putting together an emergency fund).

[cmadler]

http://www.mlive.com/news/annarbornews/index.ssf?/base/news-28/1217860836227000.xml&coll=2

Here's an article about how my local farmers' markets (yes, we have two) are targeting EBT and WIC recipients by offering a way for people to stretch EBT further as well as nutrition classes. This kind of program seems like a win all around; people with low incomes get access to affordable healthy food and advice while local farmers get an expanded customer base.

Also, one of the organizers of the farmers' market is Growing Hope (http://www.growinghope.net), which operates community gardens and facilitates donations of fresh produce from gardeners to people in need. Personally, I feel a lot better donating extra produce than money, and it gives me something good to do with all those extra zucchini!

[Mizzday]

I was a single parent with one child making $76,000 per year. I spent around $100 every two months on groceries and supplement with $20 every two weeks. What I would do was by a "baseline" of necessary items such as, rice, flour, inexpensive microwavables,etc. During the two week periods, I would restock milk, bread, butter,cereal. I learned this via my grandmother who raised me working as a domestic worker for $100 per week in the eighties with no food stamps in one of the so called , "underserved" neighborhoods. I think that it is true when it is said that people buy a lot of "luxury" items. My grandmother actually had a fairly large garden in the back yard where she would plant green beans, squash, etc. The seeds were cheap and she would clean and deep freeze many of the items. As far as grocery stores were concerned, my grandmother would walk from Hempstead New York to Garden city, baldwin because she knew that in certain neighborhoods the groceries would cost less. Listen being dirt poor is manageable if one is not lazy and has a natural survival instinct. My sister and I would go to other peoples houses that had "welfare" and watch them walk around with ice cream, canned soda's and all types of things. They had cable and we had one small black and white television that barely worked. I am not saying this is fair or something people should endure. However, we didn't die without a lot of things. KMC needs to get off of the soap box with the Underserved excuse because in most cases an excuse is a skin of a reason stuffed with a lie.