For those of you new to Free Money Finance, I post on The Bible and Money every Sunday. Here's why.
Here's a first -- a "Help a Reader" question with a Sunday-topic theme! Cool!
Anyway, here's a question a reader left on my post titled Who Should Know How Much a Pastor Makes?:
I am concerned about our pastor's control of the church finances and was curious if anyone else has run across this issue. The church is pastor-led with no elders or deacons. There are no over site committees of any kind. He has a group of 5 paid staff that make all financial and ministry decisions. They set their own pay and will not tell the congregation what they make, even after we ask. The pastor also has a 10k per year fund he can spend at his total discretion. He also knows how much everyone gives to the church. They have a "budget meeting" once a year but it is really just a report of where the money was spent the previous year. They have a member of the church prepare the spending report but she doesn't give the report. She is not even present at the annual meeting. When questions are asked we are seen and labeled as trouble makers and made to seem as we don't trust the pastor. If there is nothing to hide then why won't he be more transparent? Comments?
I have one thought for him. What do you have to say?
I would study the Bible to see if this is a Biblical church operating in a God centered fashion. It doesn't sound like it.
Posted by: Gary Atkinson | July 19, 2009 at 07:36 AM
I would leave this church if the pastor won't be more transparent and agree to some oversight. A pastor who can't be upfront about issues of money probably also can't be upfront about other issues. He needs oversight and accountability. My thought is that this is just the tip of the iceberg~other more serious issues are likely to emerge.
Posted by: womanofthehouse | July 19, 2009 at 08:06 AM
Asking for trouble to have no deacons or elders for oversight. Can you ask for help from the church denomination offices?
Posted by: MC | July 19, 2009 at 08:17 AM
I agree with FMF...leave that church immediately, and tell them why.
Posted by: Trent D. | July 19, 2009 at 08:27 AM
Sounds like it is time to leave. The money issue is a non-starter for one. Also, if there is no elder board, there is also no accountability on other church matters.
Posted by: JimL | July 19, 2009 at 09:04 AM
Paid staff making all the financial decisions? Eeeeeee, run!
Posted by: MissPinkKate | July 19, 2009 at 09:37 AM
I'm a pastor, and this methodology of secrecy behind the finances is pure manure. Run, don't walk, from this church. Come visit us any time and I'll show you our annual budget which spells out to the penny what I am paid (and where every other penny is going as well). I can show you monthly updates and our reconciliation of our accounts. And, I don't know what a single person (not including my wife or myself) gives to the church. And the only reason I know what my wife gives is because they put her giving in with my giving on our quarterly pledge report the volunteer financial secretary mails to each giver.
Pastor Chris Meirose
http://WasecaChurch.org
Posted by: Chris Meirose | July 19, 2009 at 10:16 AM
Yeah, it sounds kind of wrong. My church gives a full yearly financial report to anyone who asks, and our pastor is the only person who is paid. He also tells everyone what he is paid. He is definitely not living large. There are elders that prepare the financial reports but the pastor doesn't know what everyone donates.
Posted by: thebaglady | July 19, 2009 at 12:44 PM
If there was some oversight, I don't think he'd have to tell everyone in the church what he is making, but since that is not the case, I would leave.
Posted by: Darin H | July 19, 2009 at 12:54 PM
This situation sounds more like a cult than a church.
Posted by: cb | July 19, 2009 at 01:38 PM
Any church that doesn't have safeguards in place with it's finances is just asking for trouble. There should be policies and procedures in place for any church from when the offering is taken to when it is counted, to how it is spent. I would never attend or give to a church that is not transparent with their finances.
Posted by: Bob's Occasional Musings | July 19, 2009 at 02:55 PM
Change churches, sounds sketchy to me. Doesn't sound too biblical.
Posted by: uncle john | July 19, 2009 at 03:39 PM
Sounds like a cult under the guises of 'church'.
Vote with your feet and leave.
Univ. of Hard Knocks
Posted by: Robert W | July 19, 2009 at 06:02 PM
Trusting one man with that much power is definitely asking for trouble. Its a lot easier not to give people the opportunity to give in to temptation. Our church separates the money counter, the check writer, the budgeter, and the pastor. Separation of powers is always wise.
But I understand the temptation of a pastor centered congregation: that kind of structure eliminates theological debate in the congregation, economic debate in the congregation, and allows the church members to focus on outward mission and inward growth, rather than the politics of the congregation. So there are some advantages. Personally, I prefer a priesthood of all believers.
You don't need to leave the church, but I'd personally recommend not giving them any money-give your donations to other not-for-profits.
Posted by: StL Pastor | July 19, 2009 at 06:22 PM
I agree that this sounds very fishy, and it's time to find a new church. They are being way to secretive and controlling. I agree with MC, if there is a denominational office you can go to I would bring your concerns there.
I work for a church and we mail out a fiscal/financial report every year to every family, this includes how much goes to salaries and wages (but not everyone's personal salary, just the total of all of them). Plus, a monthly summary (giving vs operating expenses) is put in our bulletin.
Posted by: Jo | July 19, 2009 at 06:27 PM
If this church does not have a denominational office, the state usually requires non-profit to file a report that is available to the public. Of course, my first reaction is: I'll bet the IRS will take notice.
Posted by: RobF | July 19, 2009 at 07:19 PM
I'm guessing this is non-denominational.
Posted by: StL Pastor | July 19, 2009 at 08:08 PM
To RobF: Generally churches don't have to file the Form 990, but yeah, I'm thinking the report available to the public would be information that people might want. Definitely worth checking out, anyways.
Any organization not willing to give up information that would seem to be important (e.g., the "Where are my donations going, anyways?") is one where you have to be worried about it.
Posted by: Josh Stein | July 20, 2009 at 09:25 AM
I only give to organizations that provide a breakdown of how each dollar is spent. It sounds like your pastor does not want to be accountable to anyone especially to the individuals that support him.
Time to speak to the members about getting another pastor if he is unwilling to change.
Posted by: Pete | July 20, 2009 at 10:23 AM
I know a lot of the comments encourage you to leave the church but I think that could be the easiest and worst thing that you can do. Obviously something attracted you to this church and my guess is that you have developed a good number of friendships with others in the congregation.
Your congregation needs to set up an organizational structure that spreads the wealth of responsibility among your church as a whole and not just with a select few. You should have a Board of Deacons (made up from members of the congregation) serve as your fiscal leaders. The pastor can serve on that board but only in an advisory capacity (no voting power). There are other groups that you will want to create as well to help provide the leadership and vision for your missions, community outreach, and overall care of your congregation.
Ultimately, if you care about the future of your church and the congregation(your friends) you should attempt to bring some accountability and organization to your church to ensure it's existence for generations to come.
Posted by: SmartSecurityPeople.com | July 20, 2009 at 12:06 PM
Sorry.. meant Board of Trustees.. not Deacons in the above posting when talking about fiscal leaders... You should have a Board of Deacons as well but that won't help with the fiscal responsibility.
Posted by: SmartSecurityPeople.com | July 20, 2009 at 12:08 PM
Read the comments by the person again. It says that questions have been asked, but then they are labelled as troublemakers.
For me, I would go elsewhere. It is beyond a money issue. If you don't have an elder board or some other oversight, there are other fundamental issues going on.
Posted by: JimL | July 20, 2009 at 01:29 PM
Option #1: Leave the church and go elsewhere.
Option #2: Reduce or eliminate your donations until they show you a financial statement. The church technically doesn't have to show you a financial statement and you don't technically have to donate anything to the church.
Option #3: Convince the pastor or the congregation that the financial information should be provided to the people making the donations.
Posted by: Mike | July 20, 2009 at 07:41 PM
At best, your pastor is an erring brother in Christ. It is certainly scriptural for you to privately admonish him for not obeying the clear biblical direction regarding how the church should be structured. (Although there are differences in interpretation, I think all scriptural interpretations of church government provide for a church to be governed in a well-ordered fashion.) If nothing else, his behavior is a stumbling block to weaker believers and therefore he should, for their sake, change.
If your pastor fails to listen, you address the matter with him again, along with two or three other believers. Since it's apparent there's no structure of elders, when you've done this, you'll have no other recourse. At that point you disfellowship him until he repents. In this case, of course, disfellowshipping would require you (and the others) leaving his church, rather than the other way around.
Essentially, this is a matter of church discipline, which is the responsibility of every believer.
Posted by: Eric S. | July 20, 2009 at 09:53 PM
What is the size of your church? The real number of people that are members. Next, do we have people in positions that are able to budget the financies of the church? I think trust is important, the Pator is not hired he is called. The process is, God moves people to vote on thier Pastor and therefore his calling is shown. If you believe he is called thier is a trust that must be thier. Not always but sometimes some people want to control the pastor and its vision to meet thier own desires. I have trouble understaning how some people want to act as a spiritual security force and as if some how thier insights and motives are more innocent and pure and holy then the one that God has called. God has not called you and if you do not trust your pastor do him a favor go some where else. He has too pay taxes, file IRS forms and pay the bills and give tiths etc... like everyone else. If he is doing some kind of sin God and IRS will catch him eventually. But trust me when I say, the only person you trust, is more then likley only you. If you go to another Church you will more then likely find somehting about that Pastor you do not like.
My church has people that count it, I deposit it, and have a record of what was paid each month. One person pays the bills and the pastor. We show what all the monies went to and if ther Pastor is going to get a raise or not. I think it is too open. How would we like it if the whole church new what we made and if we voted on your salalry. I heard of a Pastor that told the church tell me you salary and I will tell you mine. I though it was harsh but I undertsnad it some what. I think we should trust God and just do our part. God has called you to give. Let God judge how the monies are being used. That Pastor will stand before God not you.
Posted by: Brother in the Lord | January 20, 2010 at 12:50 PM