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March 07, 2010

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*Yawn* run-of=-the-mill scare-mongering. That "Don't be alarmed, but..." is just so classic!

I thought that the "mark of the beast" to buy and sell thing already happened to Jews during the Holocaust.

Also, I don't see why a cashless society is likely to be more dangerous for Christians than one that uses cash for everything. All merchants have always kept records of what they buy and sell and usually the names of people they sell to as well. You should check out the account books from the American Colonies or Napoleonic France--complete records of everything have survived in many cases to the present day--without credit or debit cards.

Christians need to focus on what they do every day, not obsess about the financial system.

Christians should not fear if they truly put their trust in the Lord. Another way to clearly see that the world is heading toward the end times. No-one will know the date or time, but we will know what to expect during the the final days. Fear or hope, you decide.

Thanks for the article! The more truth we gain by reading and referring to His love letter to us all, the more comfort we take away.

My grandfather was an old-time hellstone and brimfire preacher. In the early 80's I recall reading a brochure at his house about how credit cards were in fact "the mark of the beast" and a tool of the devil. Which of course we now know to be true.

Are there really people out there who believe electronic funds transfers are a tool of the Devil and a sign of impending doom? That's amazing.

The way I understand it … The sign of God: "I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the Lord that sanctify them." Ezekiel 20:12. God's sign, the Sabbath, represents His holy power to rule as Creator and Saviour. It is His seal, or mark of authority. Since the symbol, or mark, of God's authority and power is His holy Sabbath day, it seems likely that the symbol, or mark, of God's challenger--the beast--might also involve a holy day. From the Catholic catechism: “We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday." Here is another Catholic statement: "The Church is above the Bible; and this transference of Sabbath observance from Saturday to Sunday is proof positive of that fact." Choosing to obey the laws of the papacy (Sunday) rather than the laws of God (Sabbath) will leave you with the mark of beast.

Being and older guy I read this book in the bible as a kid. I never thought it possible not to be able to do commerce without a mark on your forehead. As we are painfully aware that could happen in a few years.

stoihi,
its generally considered polite to provide actual citations for your quotations.

On the substance of your post-
The Sabbath is just one of many 'signs' between God and humanity. The Exodus is a sign, the Passover is a sign, Isaac's birth was a sign, the Holy Spirit is a sign, and most of all, Jesus' life, death and resurrection is a sign. To say that the Sabbath is the greatest of the signs belies Jesus' teaching that the Sabbath was created for humanity, not humanity for the Sabbath (Mark 2:27), and his consistent teaching that the focus on the Sabbath in the 1st century was missing the mark-that rather concern for justice mercy and faithfulness was the core of our relationship to God and each other (Matthew 23). Since the Sabbath is simply a regular remembrance of God's loving work in creation, I confess I have trouble getting worked up about which day it is celebrated-either Saturday, Sunday, or Thursday for that manner.

Also, while I notice the move towards electronic money which does get my privacy concerns going, (think about FMF's post on how many different ways our credit and finance are tracked and its just mind-blowing what corporations can do, and I'm equally weirded out by what humans can do to each other-http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/07/magazine/07Human-t.html) I'm with FMF, that I'm happy to engage in black market commerce if it becomes ethically troubling to work within the law. And if we want a little bit more of a metaphorical interpretation of Revelation, Wikepedia (I'm feeling lazy, and they do a good job here) has a nice summery:

"New Testament scholar Craig C. Hill, a Methodist, says, "It is far more probable that the mark symbolizes the all-embracing economic power of Rome, who's very coinage bore the emperor's image and conveyed his claims to divinity (e.g., by including the sun's rays in the ruler's portrait). It had become increasingly difficult for Christians to function in a world in which public life, including the economic life of the trade guilds, required participation in idolatry."...The verse is also seen as making a pointed ironical contrast with the Jewish institution of tefillin – bible texts worn bound to the arm and the forehead during daily prayer. Instead of binding their allegiance to God to their arm and head, the place is instead taken with people's allegiance to the Beast.

StL. Pastor,

I know it is considered polite to provide actual citations... I was in a hurry, but here they are:

The first quotation: Peter Geiermann, The Convert's Catechism of Catholic Doctrine (St. Louis, B. Herder Book Co., 1957 ed.), p. 50.

The second quotation: The Catholic Record (London, Ontario, Canada, Sept. 1, 1923).

A seal is what makes a document official, and it normally contains three characteristics: Name, Office, and Territory. An example would be "Cyrus king of Persia" in Ezra 1:1. The fourth commandment is the only one that contains all three elements of a seal: (1) "The Lord"--His name, (2) "made"--His office as Creator, (3) "heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is"--His territory.

First, it was Bill Gates and the Microsoft logo being the 666 sign. And now this?

Why is it that non-belivers have to belittle or mock Christian beliefs? For whatever the reason, we are moving to a cashless society and that should concern everyone. You don't have to be religious to want privacy.

I find it amazing that Crown says that no one knows when the end will come, yet they can say we're in the end times. If they don't know when the end is, how can they be sure we're in the end times? Ah yes, it's that pre-millenial crap that is taught in some Christian circles that takes all the symbolism in Revelation and tries to pinpoint the end times. Do you really think that God would dangle this "riddle" called Revelation in front of us to give Christians something to do, rather than preaching the gospel and changing lives?

I am a Christian and I can honestly say I believe the Bible when it says "no one knows the hour". I take that at face value. I also am wary of "false prophets" who try to pinpoint the end times through various interpretations of Revelation.

Hey stoihi, thanks for continuing the conversation.

I think its worth noting that the Catholic Record is not an official teaching organ of the Catholic Church, and after having read the article in question, the quotation you cite seems to be the commentary of a single Catholic bishop, I'm not sure its fair to paint all Catholics with that brush.

But you are certainly right that the Catholic church believes that tradition sometimes supersedes the Biblical text, as the Holy Spirit continues to work in the world and in particular in the church.

I'm not sure I agree with your interpretation of a 'seal' and how it applies to the Ten commandments. Using your language, it is clear that "YHWH" is God's name, and "Your God" is his title and 'made heaven and earth' or 'brought you out of the Land of Egypt' or 'God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob' are the distinguishing characteristics (e.g. territory) of YHWH, the God in question.

It seems like a stretch to read the mention of creation in only one of the two lists of the ten commandments (the Deuteronomy 5 passage says nothing about creation in regards to the Sabbath) as a particular highlight to that commandment, or to apply a common Near Eastern tactic of kings to YHWH's self referential style and draw major theological conclusions about important commandments. This is particularly true because Jesus himself has already highlighted the commandments to love God and to love neighbor as the greatest commandments.

I have Jesus and my guns to support him if need be! :)
I'll put the mark of the beast on their foreheads if they'd like!

Why would a Christian care about physical markings when their soul is whats at stake?

I agree with Mike. "Scripture says no one knows when the end will come but we’re in the end times" is a ridiculous statement. There have been generations and generations of Christians who have said "I know the end times will happen during my lifetime." Personally, I think focusing on something like this (the end times) is just silly, and a poor use of the time and talents that God has given us.
Credit cards are not the mark of the beast. I think the real clue that the end times are here is when we are all forced to worship something and if we don't worship it, we are killed. According to the quotation you copied here, FMF, that would happen before the mark of the beast would be applied. So, I won't have to worry about the mark of the beast because I will already have been killed by the time those are given out.

The 'mark of the beast' (a visible mark on one's forehead or hand?) could be used as a requirement for buying and selling even in a pure cash society -- unless you could show your mark, noone would buy from you or sell to you. No need for electronic identification at all.

As a Christian, and an information technology professional developing software for buying/selling in the marketplace, I don't think there's any more danger of social or governmental control over our buying and selling with electronic payment systems than there is with paper money or coinage. Or paper checks and money orders. All of the systems I've worked with are designed to ensure privacy and anonymity where it matters.

Any hype over this ought to be compared to the "Y2K" scare of 10 years ago -- many people who don't understand information technology believe it is this powerful, centrally controlled system that itself controls everything else. Not so. Shoot - I can attest that it can be difficult to get two or three different electronic systems to share information reliably, much less the thousands of systems that exist out there.

I wasn't worried in 1999, and I'm not going to worry about this now....

Even with cash, this can happen, its quite simple the government controls and prints cash, look at North Korea banning currency ,or if one prints too much money it becomes worthless paper, electronic payments are usually not visible, one would not need a "mark rather an invisible barcode".

In a non-electronic society , a mark is more likely, think of North Korea forcing its citizens to wear a mark and its army inspecting and observing stores to make sure they have the mark.

The mark doesn't have to be visible it could be a mandate for a certain style or characteristic which doesn't have anything to do with electronics.

By the way countries tend to limit technology and electronics in most third world countries under dictatorships due to fear of global ization and spread of influence

WAKE UP IDIOTS.. THE MARK IS YOUR SS NUMBER.. EVERYONE HAS ONE... THE END IS COMING.. BUT THE END OF WHAT.. IS THE QUESTION

Today is February 7, 2011. There is, to this day, no legislation in the works to turn the US into a cashless economy, but that doesn't mean it won't happen. In fact, it would be easier to make the transition under extreme duress, simply by inducing panic with a phony crisis. Simply throw the economy into a major tailspin by causing panic on the New York Stock Exchange and NASDAQ, employers will lay off millions, the dollar devalues to a fraction of what it was a week before the crisis ensued and the people and their reps in Congress will go along with any solution the rich, powerful bankers offer up. Just remember how easy it was to shake down Congress during an election year for $700 billion for the big banks on Wall Street. A little fearmongering and they got what they wanted.

Today, all the physical elements for a cashless society are already in place. All that is needed is the right amount of economic calamity to get us accept it, to herd us all into that corral, where they'll brand us all.

I grew up in an atheist family, where anyone who dared explore a belief in God or Satan or even believe in UFOs would be branded a lunatic. My parents strictly forbade us bringing any religious books into the house, as they felt that the religious crowd were all nutcases who use religion as mind control. Then I started to read about our march toward a global economy and what the Book of Revelations says about it. Revelations was written at a time when it would have been impossible for any man or nation to rule the entire world. Today, it can happen. All the necessary elements are in place! And if it's possible, you can bet someone will try to pull it off. That made a believer out of me. But even if you aren't religious and still choose not to be, you should still be aware of the loss of privacy and your rights as a human being if we end up with a one world government and no cash to use as an alternative to the cashless paradigm that is to come.

Just Lurking:

The only people that have a Social Security number are U.S. Citizens. Therefore, how could the entire world be controlled by that number? Also, it is assigned and therefore cannot be refused, as opposed to a physical "mark" on your hand (or forehead if you are and amputee).

I'd think again about your assessment and use of the caps lock when expressing your idiocy.

The mark will buy goods and services in a cashless world, but it will not buy a block of ice or a glass of water in Hell.

I think that with the excuse being id theft we will be implanted with a microchip in our right hand or forehead that will identify us as we buy and sell. We already have them less than the size of a grain of rice to identify a lost pet.

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