Reader Profile Update: Mark

Here's our very first Reader Profile Update. Many of you asked for this type of post -- a progress report on where past Reader Profile readers are these days financially. I think you'll really enjoy this.

Today's post is from Mark, who gave us his reader profile over two year's ago. Here's his update:

I wanted to tell my bankruptcy story because I think we can sometimes learn more from failure than from success. And I have to admit, I'm getting bored with reading personal profiles on FMF.

I also wanted to talk about my bankruptcy because I think it really demonstrates that wealth building requires a certain amount of intellectual, emotional and psychological fortitude that a lot of people simply don't have. While it can be acquired, I think the posts on FMF demonstrate that people with certain personality types and personal backgrounds are much more likely to acquire and implement this knowledge than others. You'll notice the prevalence of engineer profiles on FMF...I don't think that's a coincidence. Most engineers are the INTJ Myers-Briggs personality type, and this personality type tends to be very good at saving and investing and preliminary case studies suggest INTJs are one of 3 personality types likely to retire early and be happy with the decision. See this link for details. http://www.retireearlyhomepage.com/mbti.html

For the record, I am also INTJ. For those of you who don't know about the Myers-Briggs personality types, you can read about them here.

And you can take the test here.

My original profile appeared on this blog on 4/26/11 and I'm happy to report I continue to make progress saving & investing.

I would say the seeds of my bankruptcy were sown when I moved more than 2000 miles away from home to go to college. The primary motivation for going to college out of state was that I knew I was gay and I wanted to do my own thing (on my parents' dime of course!) without them knowing about it. I also grew up in a cold winter climate and it was nice to move somewhere with warm weather! So, as you can see, I had some pretty unrealistic expectations / motivations / issues right from the start.

Within 6 months, I met an older guy who seemed to have answers to a lot of the spiritual aspects of life that I was curious about and we ended up moving in together, motivated largely by the fact that he'd lost his job and was living with a kinda trashy roommate. (Red flag right there, I know). Toward the end of my first year of college, my parents had found out I was gay and about a month later they discovered I was living with a guy who was ~ 20 years older than me and they flipped out (This was the late '80s and his voice was on my answering machine....DUH...I know). Long story short, they were still kinda freaked out that I was gay, and when they found out I was living with some guy 20 years older than me it put them over the edge. Drama ensued and they cut me off financially.

I got a job and went to school part time. He had just started his own business that had a lot of ups and downs that he didn't know how to deal with. I was freaked out because my income wasn't enough to support myself, let alone him and I was trying to get through school. After about 1.5 years he ended up getting in over his head with business and personal expenses he couldn't pay, we ended up putting his business in my name. I know. Horrible idea. I went along with his "It'll be different this time" line of thinking out of fear, I think. I didn't feel like I had any better options at the time. That may not have been true, but as the saying goes, perception is reality. By the time I was 21 years old, about three years after we met, we both ended up declaring bankruptcy, primarily because of overwhelming business and personal expenses we just couldn't pay.

In general, there was a lot of tension because I was more of a saver and he was a spender. He would do stuff like go out to eat even though we didn't know where the rent money was going to come from. This would infuriate me, but for him this "coming from behind" way of operating was actually his comfort zone. We had VERY different ideas about what financial stability looked like. He grew up in a large family and basically had a hand to mouth existence. I grew up comfortably middle class with parents who are like most of the FMF profiles here. Lived below their means, paid cash for modest cars, paid the house off early. Saved inside and outside their 401ks (when they became more widely available in the early 1980s). I really had NO CLUE that most people didn't live the way my parents did. My mom used to say back in the 1980s "In any given neighborhood half the people can afford to live there and the other half can't". Unfortunately, as the 2008 financial crisis proved, she was right. (I think by 2008, it was more like 2/3 of the people couldn't afford their lifestyles, as Jean Chatzky's research for her 2008 book The Difference showed that 69% of Americans were either going further in debt or were living payday to payday). So my ex and I had completely different internal financial scripts that we went by....but our different scripts were only one small part of the problem.

I came to realize in the next 20 years the reason for that. He had been sexually abused as a child by several older brothers (who, in turn, had also been molested....this is what the cycle of abuse often looks like). He had mentioned this to me when we were together that he had some memories of this, but I had absolutely no idea of any of the implications. My ex recently went to a very good psychologist and recovered a lot more memories. It turns out the abuse was much more extensive than he initially remembered and that there was both physical and sexual abuse. It turns out that people who experience this kind of childhood trauma often repress their memories as a defense mechanism. 

One of the big traits my ex had as a result of the childhood abuse was he had a hard time with ANY kind of stability...As soon as things start going on a comfortable "cruising" altitude, someone or something would come along to crash the plane. This type of thing is very common with those who were sexually abused as children. Stability is actually very uncomfortable for them. They can't handle it, so they sabotage themselves so that they're always coming from behind. Always putting in lots of effort and making great strides, but never getting anywhere.

People who suffer childhood sexual abuse often attract abusive people in their lives (Employers, "friends", and acquaintances take advantage of them financially and otherwise). They tend to have a HUGE issue with feeling they don't deserve anything. Sometimes they try to cover this up by overcompensating and being super positive on the surface...but underneath it all, they feel they are bad people and are unworthy of anything. They put themselves in positions to be taken advantage of over and over again. My ex had started his own business as the result of being in an abusive employment situation. (Yet another red flag that I didn't see at the time).

I lived through this for 6 years without really understanding the abuse aspect of it at all even though the signs were there. For example, when we first met, he told me he had 2 ex wives who had been killed by ex boyfriends...2 more red flags to add to the collection. (Of course, the whole gay and being married thing is a whole other weird dynamic...but suffice it to say it's still much more common than many folks want to admit). Prior to meeting me, he had also been in a few abusive relationships with other men. It wasn't until recently that I fully understood why my ex got into those self destructive financial and relationship dynamics. He would be fine...and then BOOM, he'd be depressed for no reason and his business would start falling apart. I would get angry and upset, which would only add fuel to the fire. It was all very bewildering and frustrating.

Now, here was my end of it:

• I was a little too comfortable and had unrealistic expectations of life. In my ex's terms, I was a "rich kid". He was mostly right on that point.
• I had a fear of driving so I did not drive, which severely limited the kinds of jobs I could work.
• I was not a very confident person (still am not particularly, but much better than I used to be).
• I think being gay definitely put me at a disadvantage in many ways. Primarily because I didn't have a good relationship with my dad. Therefore, I didn't get the career coaching and guidance that I would've if we'd had a better relationship.
• There was also just a lot of fear going on. I think I had a general fear of men from being bullied at school (I'm stereotypically gay)...so I shied away from male dominated professions that might pay more. That also went back to my dad. My dad was in business, and I (subconsciously) chose a liberal arts type major partly because I didn't want to be anything like my dad.
• I also didn't get good relationship guidance because I lived far away from my parents and everything was colored by the gay issue on both sides. My parents didn't really like my ex. They knew something was odd about him, although they didn't get to the core of what was wrong (which was the childhood sexual abuse). My ex did fulfill a parental role for me in many ways. He was a good mentor in many ways, but because he was emotionally damaged himself, there were many things he just could not help with. 
• I am an introvert, so I wasn't good at reaching out to other people in terms of friends or job networking. I was really socially clueless for a long time. I gradually got better...but I really didn't get completely clued in until I was in my mid 30s. I think my ex tried to help me with this...but I wasn't a good listener and I think maybe his approach wasn't the best and was tainted by his own insecurities. I think because he often got the short end of the stick in business and personal relationships, I didn't take his advice seriously.

The results so far:

• I patched things up with my parents. I learned how to drive. I graduated from college. I wasted a semester on grad school before I realized I was just going because I didn't know what to do with my life. I finally found a direction and got employment that paid me enough to survive. When I was 24, we broke up, and I moved out, but stayed friends with my ex.
• I don't make a lot of money, but I'm in pretty good shape financially (see my 4/26/11 profile). My income took a hit due to across the board pay cuts in my public sector job, but my net worth has grown significantly since my original post and I've managed to save the same amount toward retirement.
• After we broke up, my ex subsequently got in a few more abusive relationships with other guys. One guy in particular, was really bad news. However, after the really bad guy, he did have a very stable period with one nice guy for 5 years before they broke up a few years ago.
• My ex, is now in his early 60s, is in poor health (diabetes and kidney disease) and is just getting by financially with minimal or no savings. We've remained friends but he lives in a different state. I worry about him even though he tells me not to. I don't think I could let him end up on the street if a medical or other emergency were to occur. At this point, I think it's too late for him to dramatically improve his financial situation, although some marginal improvement might be possible. If anyone has any advice about what to do with someone in this situation, I'm all ears!!!! Yes, I know I'm not responsible, but if it comes to that, it's tough to let people you care about end up on the street or at the whims of government bureaucracies.

Over the years, especially the last year or two, I have learned A LOT about childhood trauma and how it affects people's financial and relationship decisions. The short version of this is that financial success absolutely requires a certain level of emotional intelligence that most people don't have. Sometimes I think blogs like this really miss that point. We need to really understand that the history of humanity is the history of trauma and abuse. Think of all the wars going on throughout the world in the last 100 years.

I am absolutely convinced that until we can learn to heal people and ourselves from the emotional traumas that are much more common than is currently recognized, we can't help them financially. The hard part is that I'm not sure modern psychology/psychiatry really knows how to heal people--at least not fully. We must understand that the human race has progressed much faster technologically than it has emotionally. Fortunately, most of us don't have severe abuse in our childhoods, so the emotional blocks (and we all have them in varying degrees) can be more easily overcome. But it's absolutely essential that people take the time to understand the underlying motivations for their behavior. Those motivations are not always evident on the surface level, as I think my piece has clearly demonstrated.

Comments

[Jenny @ Frugal Guru Guide]

Actually, your ex just got taken advantage of again. There is no evidence that children who are molested ever repress memories. None. There is, however, enormous evidence that vulnerable people are easily coached into believing in false memories.

http://faculty.washington.edu/eloftus/Articles/sciam.htm

This isn't the point of the article, but I do want to warn others that despite what some unethical health professionals try to convince the public, "repressed memories" of this sort simply don't exist.

[Jenny @ Frugal Guru Guide]

As far as what he could do...he could probably sue the psychologist who helped coach the false memories and win. :)

[Lurker Carl]

Sever the final ties to that failed relationship and move on.

[Mrs. Wastenot]

It was nice to read a different reader profile on this blog. They were becoming a little standard. Thank you for shaking things up, being honest, and sharing your story. I hope that you continue to find success, but that you also have the courage and confidence to protect yourself from others who might sabotage your own success - no matter how much you care for them.

[Mert]

Thank you very much for sharing. What can i say? First, good therapy is magic, so actually anybody should take it since it really raises life quality and we all have some stuff to resolve, including your ex. You can help him to have it no matter what happens. Second, cut the ties. Yes, care for him, maybe help him if.absolutely needed, but cut the ties. I feel that you are taken advantage of. You may be the one who is abused here. Give it a thought. This may lead to financial and emotional disaster for you.

[Laura]

I really enjoyed both this profile and your original profile (which I hadn't seen before). I earn about as much as you do and am truly impressed with how much you manage to save - I hope to get close to that much this year! And the fact that you live with roommates has given me food for thought about how long I might continue to live with others.

Thanks for your honesty - it was really refreshing.

[Paul]

No advice, just wanted to thank you for sharing. I'm not sure when I started the reading the site, but it was after your first profile.

[Ivy]

Thank you for the link to the interesting survey on MBTI link to retirement. I am ISTJ, so I guess the chances are pretty good for early retirement psychologically as well.

[Old Limey]

I spent pretty much my whole career working on classified government programs for the US Navy. All of the engineers working on these programs required a "Secret" clearance. In my day there was no way that a gay person could ever get a Secret clearance and I imagine it is still that way. The reason is that gays are considered huge security risks and I can understand the reasons why.

Our group was in a room without windows and had a security guard outside the door. All of our desks and cabinets were locked with very strong combination locks. Every evening the last person to leave the room had to do a complete check on all the desks and locks, ensure that each desk was totally clear of everything, and then sign off on the security monitor book.

I was sitting at my desk one day when a member of Plant Security came into our office, walked up to the engineer sitting near me that was my group leader and said the following, "I need you to remove all of your personal effects from your desk, hand me your badge, and come with me". That was the last time I ever saw him.

I found out later that he had been corresponding with a gay man in the military and that was reason enough to yank his security clearance. He ended up going to work on commercial airplane projects at Boeing in Seattle.

I was shocked by this event as my group leader was a married man with children. Looking back however I realized that some of his conversations were rather weird and I never had any contact with him outside of work.

When I was getting my clearance the FBI contacted many of my friends and neighbors, in the USA as well as in England and asked lots of probing questions about my morality and personal habits. Prior to getting my clearance I wasn't even allowed into the main plant. A group of new hires like myself worked for a while in an office in a shopping center doing unclassified work until our security clearance came through.

[Mike Hunt]

I think you need to move on from a bad relationship and take it as a lesson learned...

Thanks for sending the link to the M-B test... I took it again (last time was many years ago) and found out that I am still an ENTJ!

-Mike

[Paul]

@oldlimey, I usually appreciate your insights and your long view of things. However I will not tolerate your bigoted comments. Please keep them to yourself. Hopefully you have not passed on such ignorance to your children, and it dies with your generation.

Gays are no more of a security risk than you or I, and are no longer considered as such by the government. I have a clearance as well, and they no longer even ask.

[Laura]

@Paul

Agreed. Usually I find Limey's posts entertaining - he's like the grandpa of FMF who knows his personal finance but also goes on rambling personal tangents.

Unfortunately, this time he's strayed into bigoted grandpa territory (if this were a family reunion I'd be looking around uncomfortably and seeking to end the conversation ASAP) - and I'm not sure what his comment is supposed to add to the discussion even without the bigoted comments.

[AZ Joe]

@ Everyone: Old Limey, Paul and Laura;

Like it or not, the facts are the facts; what has already happened has already happened. Don't be silly. Good post Mark, thanks.

[BobSmith]

I like the part where you said your gay partner was always "coming from behind". Hehe.

[Brooklyn Money]

I actually think Suze Orman has a good perspective on this because she delves often times into the why behind "bad" money behaviors. We are all motivated by different sometimes subconscious drives so it's good to be able to understand what is really going on inside your head/heart so you can make better decisions.

[CT]

Thank you @BobSmith! You beat me to it!

[Mark]

As far as repressed memories go...I do very much believe he repressed them. He isn't paying the psychologist (long story I don't want to go into). Suffice it to say, I do believe they are real...as they were an addition to stuff he told me 20 years ago. I'm sure the naysayers will disagree so we'll just have to leave it at that.

I've thought about completely severing the relationship. Obviously, I still perceive I'm still getting something out of it (rightly or wrongly, I don't know) or I would have severed it. But I do definitely agree that he was abusive to me in some ways. Not physically...but he could be quite manipulative psychologically and emotionally. I didn't mention it because I didn't want to paint myself as the victim, nor did I want to make the post any more soap opera-ish than it already was. People who've been abused can often be abusive to others in one form or another. It's not unheard of for the person to be abused by one person and for them to be abusive to another at the same time. It's part of the cycle of abuse (doesn't excuse it, of course...but it's very common). I think of the lyrics to that Eurythmics song "Sweet Dreams are Made of This" where Annie Lennox sings about some people wanting to abuse and others wanting to be abused. I used to think those were odd lyrics at the time the song came out (I was ~13). Now, at age 43, those lyrics make a lot of sense to me.

The other issue this brings up, though, is that we have a HUGE number of Baby Boomers who didn't adequately save for retirement (for whatever reason). This is going to a major issue for all of us in varying degrees...so something to think about.

@Old Limey....I have to agree with the "bigoted Old Gradpa" comments. I will say there probably was a security threat with gays back in your day because everyone made it out to be such a horrible thing. But when it's not a big deal, there is no need to make it a secret. It's still a big deal for many these days, but it's nowhere near what it was. I can see a lot has changed in the 20+ years since I've graduated from high school.

@Ivy...Yes, apparently ISTJs are also one of the retire early personality types.

@Laura...I don't live with roommates now and haven't in almost 8 years. I do have pretty high rent of $915 per month (cheap for my area), but I still manage to sock away 12K+ in retirement accounts, plus a few thousand in general savings. It helps a lot that I can walk to work every day...so it's prolonging the life of my car and saving me on gas.

[Mark]

@Brooklyn Money...I agree with you as far as Suze Orman goes...Her specific financial advice may not always be on target, but she does get at the emotional stuff that drives people's financial decision making. Generally speaking, we're not rational creatures.

[JNEW]

Mark

It sounds like you have encountered a few demons along the way but have learned from them and risen above them.

You need to continue to put yourself first,and build on your success. Remember the more successful you are the better able you are to help others (be they charitable endeavors or friends in need).

Your sexual orientation has nothing to do with your ability to succeed. Your best defense, I think, is to continue to build your net worth and live the life you want to live without caring what others think or requiring their blessing. Success, if nothing else gives you a bit of control over your life.

It took a lot of guts to put your heart out there on your sleeve with this post and I applaud you for it.

Best of luck.

[Limey Junior]

OldLimey gonna OldLimey....

[Walden]

@Mark - Thanks for sharing, I'm sure it's not easy to open your history up to strangers like this. It sounds like you're on a much better path now and I wish you the best of luck!

@BobSmith and @CT - those comments are disrespectful, and irrelevant.

@OldLimey - I am disappointed to hear words like that coming from you.

[Mark]

@JNEW...Thanks for your support. As far as sexual orientation goes..it's a 2 edged sword. Just look at a few of the comments here. People in positions of power still hold attitudes like some of the ones exhibited here. At the same time, I think part of my motivation for being an aggressive saver comes from being gay. The investment markets don't care about my race, sexual orientation, etc. But humans most definitely have their prejudices and biases. We all do; although some of us make more of an effort to be fair and objective than others.

@Walden..Thank you for the supportive comments. I am on a better path and have been for years...but I do worry about my ex. Even if I were to completely sever ties as some advise here, I would still worry. I'm not saying it's keeping me awake at night...but the concern is always there lurking in the background.

One more comment toward those who don't believe in repressed memories. Start researching the CIA Project known as "MK Ultra". It goes back to the 1950s. Suffice it to say the top levels of government have technology and a knowledge base that are at least 50 years beyond what the rest of us consider "cutting edge".

[JimL]

I like the profiles, regardless, because it reflects real situations and rarely find them boring, including this one.

What I abhor, is the is the barbs thrown back and forth. It is rare for it to happen on this board and I find that refreshing. In this thread, this is not so much the case. Old Limey has been a strong contributor for a long time. He has shared his honest opinions and I understand where he is coming from. It seems in this politically correct environment that tolerance is only a one way street.

Old Limey, I hope we continue to see your presence on this board.

[AC]

Bad partners are always the downfall to sound financial planning and goal setting. My relationship ended a year and a half ago, and though it broke my heart, I don't ever regret us not being together today. Savers should be with savers and spenders with spenders.

[Walden]

@JimL - Sorry for not tolerating intolerance

[JimL]

Walden,

I am welcoming of others opinions. I am sorry you are intolerant. I think FMF has done a great job keeping the board going in a friendly way through most of its history. I am hopeful it will remain that way into the future.

[TW]

Mark,
Thank you for your story. It is unfortunate that you had to go through such difficult times to be in a better place now. As for the relationship with your ex, I think it's ultimately better to move on and find a way to become internally at peace with how it ended.

Old Limey,
I wouldn't use the term bigoted to describe all your comments. I beleive the story to be a factual representation of your experience, however, your comment stating, "The reason is that gays are considered huge security risks and I can understand the reasons why" is, in my opinion, politically incorrect. Also, it would be interesting to hear the reasons why you think gays are more of a security threat compared to any other gender, sex, or race. I'd like to hear the rational behind that. With that said, I generally find your posts unique and interesting and hope to read more of them.

[Walden]

@JimL - I would agree that FMF has been a very respectful and "drama free" zone for a long time. Which is why I am pretty shocked, honestly, that comments such as the ones made above would even show up here. Would you have expected them to go unchallenged if they had been made about someone's age, race, religion, or gender?

Everyone has the right to their opinion, even if you or I find it distasteful. And you and I both expressed our opinions: I said how I felt about those comments and jokes, you said how you felt (abhorred). Seems like a two way street to me, no?

I hope I haven't made you uncomfortable, and I apologize for monopolizing this thread. I'm not trying to single you out, truly. Discrimination is a "hot button" for me. The "sorry for not tolerating intolerance" remark was partly tongue in cheek because these types of discussions tend to get circular in nature, that's all.

[Apex]

@TW,

"Also, it would be interesting to hear the reasons why you think gays are more of a security threat compared to any other gender, sex, or race. I'd like to hear the rational behind that."

Anybody who finds themselves in a situation that can be blackmailed is a security risk. If someone is openly gay it is probably pretty difficult to black mail them. However in the past that Old Limey is talking about that was rare. It is not nearly as rare now but it is still certainly true that a number of gay people are still not comfortable with full disclosure of their sexual orientation. Certainly discrimination and how people with differing opinions and beliefs will react will affect people's decisions about how public they want that information to be. But that is exactly why someone who has information that they prefer to keep secret makes them susceptible to black mail. This of course is not remotely unique to people who are gay.

Married people who have had or are having affairs are equally susceptible, perhaps more so. Obviously anyone participating in any criminal activity is susceptible. There are many ways one could be susceptible but that doesn't mean certain ways one is susceptible are invalid because it might look like discrimination.

So while I am not making any statement regarding what is bigoted and what is not and what should have been said and what should not have been said, there is a bit of an over-reaction here by saying that the statement that being gay could be considered a security risk is bigoted. It depends on the situation but being privately gay could be a security risk. Even being mostly publicly gay but having some people who don't know and you would prefer to keep it that way could be an issue.

When a hot button issue comes up it can be difficult for people to separate themselves from the emotion of it. But you can't get clarity on it if you don't. What is going on up in the comments on this thread doesn't seem to be heading in the direction of any clarity.

[Mark]

@Apex...I think your post was mostly spot on.

One thing I'll add, though...The problem gays have traditionally had is that if we're open about our orientation we're "shoving it in peoples' faces" (to some people) and if we're not we're "susceptible to blackmail". Classic Catch 22 there. Fortunately, it's less of an issue now...but clearly it's still a relevant one. Would we even be having this discussion if I were straight? I think that's pretty telling right there.

Thank you all for your .02 worth on what to do about my ex. I'm not sure I agree but I appreciate your input and will definitely take it into consideration.

[Apex]

@Mark,

Certainly you are right that there are all kinds of different reactions that people have to people who are gay.

From my perspective it is pretty clear that the attitudes are changing at such a rapid pace that in 20 years there will be wide acceptance of people who are gay. I have never seen an attitude on an issue change so rapidly in my lifetime.

Frankly I think the gay rights movement hurts their cause a little bit by pushing some things as hard as they do because of how fast things are coming their way. I think sometimes that makes sense for issues that are not moving much. But on this issue it seems the smart play is to just wait it out. To me it's a run away freight train and there is no reason to get in front of that. Its coming your way and at a speed that is hard to match in political circles.

The groups on the other side I think also look a bit ridiculous. The issue is over. They lost. They think that because the attitudes are still close to split that they can bring it back their way but they are not paying close attention to history or to demographics if they think that. The issue is over. It's simply a matter of time.

[Mark]

@AC...You are completely correct. Bad partners will be one's financial downfall. I know it sounds harsh...but it's usually better not to associate with people who are financial baset cases....or at least don't move in with them! They are usually messed up in other ways as well. I didn't get this when I was 19. I thought I could help or change my ex. I had no idea how over my head I was. The hubris of youth, I guess.

[Mark]

@Apex...I agree with you on both points. Activist gays are impatient, and obsessively single minded. But opponents are fast becoming marginalized. Althought it's good to not complacency set in, I think for the most part we just have to wait for the old people to die off (blunt, but true).

[Mark]

I'll try to make this one last comment.

I remember reading a blog piece from Lisa Marie Presley (ex wife of Michael Jackson) when Jackson died. I believe Michael Jackson definitely fit the profile of someone who had been physically/sexually abused in childhood. What Presley said was that the good things about Michael Jackson were very good. And the bad things were very bad. Her blog piece really resonated with me because that's how it was with my ex. In many ways he helped people at great personal cost (including me) but he could also be a train wreck who got himself into Catch 22 situations, asking me to bail him out. I just wanted to make that clear. It's a more complicated and nuanced situation than I could express on a blog.